EMT confusion

[Old Yard Dog]

Last night, I was on the Norwich - Liverpool service when it was halted at about 1945 at Oxford Road due to a trespasser on the line ahead. Within a few minutes it was announced that the train would be going no further.

This struck me as typical EMT. All they seem bothered about is getting their units back to Nottingham. No thoughts of waiting or diversion via Newton-le-Willows. The train was absolutely packed as EMT had weakened it to a 2-car set having, as far as I could see, run 4-car sets during the morning and afternoon (although the 4-car set I had travelled out on was to be halved at Nottingham).

As I had a seat, I was in no hurry to get off and was still seated when they announced they had caught the trespasser and the train would run after all. So it set off 25 mins late with 20% fewer passengers. And there were huge numbers waiting on platform 9 at Lime Street for the return working which EMT were so ready to cancel.

 

[dquebec]

1st post on the forum - only because I disagree with the sentiment of the above post.

How do you know whether the guard or driver had the appropriate route knowledge for Chat Moss (via Newton-le-Willows)? If the line is blocked via Warrington Central, and the crew don't sign the diversion, where else would you like them to terminate the train? Even if they signed the route, is there a path that can be found at short notice, without affecting other services?

That particular train hasn't been "weakened" at all either. It is a booked 2-car. 4-car services run on specific diagrams and services. I have no doubt it was busy, which is normal for this time of year.

It isn't at all about getting units back to Nottingham, it's about minimizing disruption overall- the Liverpool-Norwich route can affect so many different operators and routes just with a few minutes delays, and can spiral to far flung parts of the UK fairly easily. With Northern running 4-car electric services, along with TPE, I am sure most passengers from Liverpool would have been accommodated.

This delay is down to Network Rail by the way - trespassing is not the fault of a TOC.

 

[Bevan Price]

1st post on the forum - only because I disagree with the sentiment of the above post.

How do you know whether the guard or driver had the appropriate route knowledge for Chat Moss (via Newton-le-Willows)? If the line is blocked via Warrington Central, and the crew don't sign the diversion, where else would you like them to terminate the train? Even if they signed the route, is there a path that can be found at short notice, without affecting other services?

That particular train hasn't been "weakened" at all either. It is a booked 2-car. 4-car services run on specific diagrams and services. I have no doubt it was busy, which is normal for this time of year.
.

EMT does seem to choose some rather daft trains to run as 2 coaches rather than 4, particularly on saturdays. For example, the Norwich - Liverpool service departing Nottingham about 17:30 seems to be only 2 coaches, despite being used by hordes of football supporters when there is a local football match.

 

[Jonfun]

Realistically, terminating the EMT at Oxford Road due to a delay isn't going to cause a huge amount of difficulty to that many people.

Passengers for Lime Street, it's pretty much as quick just to wait for the 1955 off Piccadilly (which runs via the Chat Moss) anyway, especially so if the EMT is delayed, and that's a 4 car train rather than 2.

Passengers for Warrington Central and Liverpool South Parkway have the option of catching the TPE 2007 off Piccadilly (which takes the CLC), which isn't a massive wait if the EMT was already delayed. I've known them in the past to make a special stop at Widnes, too.

Diverting via the Chat Moss is an option as the crews sign it, but with the improvements to services along there I doubt it would exactly be easy to path.

 

[howittpie]

From what the station staff said EMT wished to divert the train but the crew didn't sign that route so was a no go..I was waiting for the 19.39 to Nottingham on which the guard came through and told people to claim delay repay and how to do it.

As a regular user of this service I think EMT do a good job and it seems to be very rare for the trains to be delayed.

 

[Bungle965]

From what the station staff said EMT wished to divert the train but the crew didn't sign that route so was a no go..I was waiting for the 19.39 to Nottingham on which the guard came through and told people to claim delay repay and how to do it.

As a regular user of this service I think EMT do a good job and it seems to be very rare for the trains to be delayed.

Yes they have seemed to have sorted there performance issues out know which is good, because i remember up untill a few years ago they seemed to suffer from pretty heavy delays, due to one thing or another.
Sam

 

[najaB]

From what the station staff said EMT wished to divert the train but the crew didn't sign that route so was a no go.

Well if the crew didn't sign the route then that's the end of the story. Next!

 

[kevjs]

Yes they have seemed to have sorted there performance issues out know which is good, because i remember up untill a few years ago they seemed to suffer from pretty heavy delays, due to one thing or another.
Sam

When I was at Uni back in 2000-2005 the only time that train was on time was when it was running so late it was running two hours late, but just happening to be in the timeslot of a later departure.... It was always a new 2 carriage service rammed to bursting point no matter when I travelled (Weekdays, Weekends, off peak, and peak time)

Haven't had the please of using it for ten years, but this year have used it four times, it's been an ancient Sprinter which has seen better days, but has managed to run on time, made up of four carriages, and have (reasonably comfy) seating for everyone (I even managed to get a table seat on three journeys, and on the fourth was able to grab one at Stockport heading from Manc Picc (the airline style seats are way too close together for my lanky legs)) and arrive in Nottingham (on the southbound legs) early both times (which is more than can be said for my eight failures at arriving back in Nottingham on-time without needing to detour via Grantham)

Some plug sockets and a good clean would make it as pleasurable as the Meridians (I can't stand the fixed armrests on the HSTs)

 

[Starmill]

The problem stems from the foolishness of providing units and crew for a Liverpool service from somewhere as far away as Nottingham.

It also has the effect that the last fast train from Sheffield to Manchester on Saturdays is the 2031 - that doesn't even continue to Liverpool. M-F there is only one subsequent fast train. Similarly on Sunday mornings the first through train from Liverpool isn't until 1252, and from Manchester is 1243.

 

[Jonfun]

Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street is, give or take, about 120 miles or so. CrossCountry Manchester to Reading is just under 180 miles, Virgin Manchester to London just over. Plenty of crews and units work long distances from their depot.

I think the main point is that at what point do you say that people from Liverpool are going to stop wanting to go out towards Sheffield and Nottingham? I think they get it fairly right at the moment to be honest, 2137 seems reasonable for such a lengthy journey. Coming back towards Liverpool, yes, the latest fast service might only go to Manchester, but there's connections on from there at 2155, 2207 and 2307 onwards to Liverpool so it isn't a major disaster.

 

[LowLevel]

The problem stems from the foolishness of providing units and crew for a Liverpool service from somewhere as far away as Nottingham.

It also has the effect that the last fast train from Sheffield to Manchester on Saturdays is the 2031 - that doesn't even continue to Liverpool. M-F there is only one subsequent fast train. Similarly on Sunday mornings the first through train from Liverpool isn't until 1252, and from Manchester is 1243.

It was resourced that way in the 90s to save money for one reason or another. The 2031 off Sheffield connects with a through 2140 from Piccadilly as far as Warrington Central for that market, and the 2155 Chat Moss express service that gets you into Liverpool 10 minutes later than the GBTT time that the normal clock face EMT service would do if it continued.

The other express operator, with slightly more local crews, TPE, also fail to provide later services for whatever reason. Probably not a bad thing given the level of antisocial behaviour and damage to trains on a Saturday night. 3 in a row of the EMT services running the other way delayed between 15 and 50 minutes the other week due to 'disorder on board'.

 

[talltim]

Well if the crew didn't sign the route then that's the end of the story. Next!

Still a failing of the TOC if they don't train their staff.

If the train terminated as Oxford Road, where would it stable until it was time to for the return service? OR does it head back ECS anyway?

 

[ivanhoe]

Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street is, give or take, about 120 miles or so. CrossCountry Manchester to Reading is just under 180 miles, Virgin Manchester to London just over. Plenty of crews and units work long distances from their depot.

I think the main point is that at what point do you say that people from Liverpool are going to stop wanting to go out towards Sheffield and Nottingham? I think they get it fairly right at the moment to be honest, 2137 seems reasonable for such a lengthy journey. Coming back towards Liverpool, yes, the latest fast service might only go to Manchester, but there's connections on from there at 2155, 2207 and 2307 onwards to Liverpool so it isn't a major disaster.

I would agree to some extent but I find it hard to digest when EMT run empty stock trains from Nottingham to Liverpool in order to run the first two trains of a morning, except Sunday. I don't know the economics of EMT having some guards and drivers based at Liverpool/Manchester. Is it more a convenience for the railway industry as opposed to the convenience of customers? Again, this is said in ignorance of the economics of the railway, but running empty stock trains from Nottingham is certainly not in the spirit of the recent Paris agreement.

 

[A-driver]

Still a failing of the TOC if they don't train their staff.



If the train terminated as Oxford Road, where would it stable until it was time to for the return service? OR does it head back ECS anyway?

Not really. It's not a case of 'training their staff'. We are talking about route knowledge for a driver, not using a coffee machine. A diversion route could require over a week of route learning. You would then need a certain amount of trips every few months for the driver to continue signing it. If you can't fit those trips into regular services then you need to release them from driving For a day to go and route refresh. They then need assessing on the route periodically. Doing all that as a just incase where a one in 30 drivers may need that diversionary route in 10 years dosnt make business sense. Lots of TOCs could find disruption reduced if staff had loads and loads of extra road knowledge but a line has to be drawn and that's dictated by the cost/benefit. Theoretically east coast drivers could learn the entire west coast and vice versa as a 'just incase' but it's never going to happen!

 

[Jonfun]

I would agree to some extent but I find it hard to digest when EMT run empty stock trains from Nottingham to Liverpool in order to run the first two trains of a morning, except Sunday. I don't know the economics of EMT having some guards and drivers based at Liverpool/Manchester. Is it more a convenience for the railway industry as opposed to the convenience of customers? Again, this is said in ignorance of the economics of the railway, but running empty stock trains from Nottingham is certainly not in the spirit of the recent Paris agreement.

XC run ECS Edinburgh to Dundee, VT run several long distance empties from Central Rivers, it does happen across the board.
I don't necessarily think it's the most optimum solution, but whilst the service is run by EMT it makes little sense for them to open a tiny depot in Manchester or wherever with all the stuff that involves (additional managers, team organisers, finding somewhere to physically locate the depot etc) - and you'd end up then having too many traincrew based at Nottingham. There's no railgourmet facilities at Manchester any more (VT use DHL and TPE use Skytrak) so you'd either have to build a catering stores or just go without catering on the services you're planning to crew from the new EMT depot.

 

[ivanhoe]

XC run ECS Edinburgh to Dundee, VT run several long distance empties from Central Rivers, it does happen across the board.
I don't necessarily think it's the most optimum solution, but whilst the service is run by EMT it makes little sense for them to open a tiny depot in Manchester or wherever with all the stuff that involves (additional managers, team organisers, finding somewhere to physically locate the depot etc) - and you'd end up then having too many traincrew based at Nottingham. There's no railgourmet facilities at Manchester any more (VT use DHL and TPE use Skytrak) so you'd either have to build a catering stores or just go without catering on the services you're planning to crew from the new EMT depot.

Thanks for the explanation. Is this because of the privatisation of the railway or did this exist in BR days?

 

[455driver]

Thanks for the explanation. Is this because of the privatisation of the railway or did this exist in BR days?

Its because of privatisation, back in BR days they would have all been based at one depot and signed nearly all routes worked from that depot.

 

[LowLevel]

The Nottingham - Liverpool ECS was introduced by Regional Railways as a way of reducing costs by having mainly Nottingham based crews operating the whole Liverpool - Norwich route. In the past depots at Leicester, Birmingham, Cambridge and now Derby and Norwich operate some trains on parts of the journey but that was the main idea - North West based crews were last involved in the early 1990s.

It runs via Romiley and Newton le Willows so it funnily enough maintains route knowledge.

My own route card is quite diverse for this route - Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington or Newton le Willows, Manchester to Sheffield via Romiley or Stockport, Sheffield to Chesterfield via Beighton or Dore, Chesterfield to Nottingham via Derby, Alfreton and Radford Junction or Toton, Nottingham to Peterborough via Grantham or Melton Mowbray, Peterborough to Norwich via or avoiding Ely.

So in actual we are quite well covered for diversions and it's mainly bad luck if you come across crew who happen to have lapsed.

 

[Starmill]

Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street is, give or take, about 120 miles or so. CrossCountry Manchester to Reading is just under 180 miles, Virgin Manchester to London just over. Plenty of crews and units work long distances from their depot.

Totally misses the point. Is there a VT depot at Euston? Yes. Is there an XC Depot in Birmingham? Yes (is there one at Reading also?). Is there an EMT one in Liverpool or Manchester? No.

I think the main point is that at what point do you say that people from Liverpool are going to stop wanting to go out towards Sheffield and Nottingham? I think they get it fairly right at the moment to be honest, 2137 seems reasonable for such a lengthy journey. Coming back towards Liverpool, yes, the latest fast service might only go to Manchester, but there's connections on from there at 2155, 2207 and 2307 onwards to Liverpool so it isn't a major disaster.

The 2137 is fine from a timetabling point of view. It could be a smidge later and it's a shame is doesn't serve Alfreton (I wonder if it can be made to serve Illkeston in future?) but it's OK and there is always a later Manchester > Sheffield.

However, if you would like to stay in Sheffield later than 2031 and get back to Manchester then it is actually pretty bad yeah! :roll: You have to change at Huddersfield or Leeds - or even in one timetable it was quicker to change at Tamworth. Unfortunately not a one is a permitted route.

 

[Jonfun]

Totally misses the point. Is there a VT depot at Euston? Yes. Is there an XC Depot in Birmingham? Yes (is there one at Reading also?). Is there an EMT one in Liverpool or Manchester? No.

It addresses the point you made perfectly accurately, crewing trains from miles away. If you meant to make a different point then that isn't my problem.

The morning XC Aberdeen to... Penzance(?) is crewed from Edinburgh. That's quite a significant distance too and there isn'f a depot in Aberdeen.

 

[Starmill]

It addresses the point you made perfectly accurately, crewing trains from miles away. If you meant to make a different point then that isn't my problem.

And it's not mine if you're just going to be facetious about it. Providing units and crew from a very long way away has problems and I don't understand why you're beating around the bush about it. In all of the examples you came up with units and crew can be provided from other, closer locations. In this case, it's clear that they cannot. That has disadvantages. Why try to deny it?

It might have some advantages too but the point is, are they worth it?

The morning XC Aberdeen to... Penzance(?) is crewed from Edinburgh. That's quite a significant distance too and there isn't a depot in Aberdeen.

Which is just one service. It isn't 1tph all day that's being expected of XC here. Whereas we do expect that of the Liverpool - Nottingham section.

 

[bunnahabhain]

If it was cost effective to have a depot in the north west, there would be. It helps a number of drivers and guards retain route knowledge for Romiley and Chat Moss diversions so if you look at it another way, running the train up empty means you don't need to send folk out on up to four road refresh days. It's also more difficult to fit in additional services from Nottingham to Manchester in the evening because the path is taken up by the pair of London to Leeds HSTs, so you'd then need a new path which would be out of sync with everything else. I suspect earlier Sunday services will come in with the next franchise, the first two are usually well loaded.

 

[najaB]

Its because of privatisation, back in BR days they would have all been based at one depot and signed nearly all routes worked from that depot.

I'm sure that even in BR days there would be situations where drivers weren't current on all the routes signed from a given depot. And it would be sods law that the diversionary route that they need would be the one that they were due to relearn next week.

 

[Jonfun]

And it's not mine if you're just going to be facetious about it. Providing units and crew from a very long way away has problems and I don't understand why you're beating around the bush about it. In all of the examples you came up with units and crew can be provided from other, closer locations. In this case, it's clear that they cannot. That has disadvantages. Why try to deny it?

It might have some advantages too but the point is, are they worth it?

Everything has problems and benefits. It's about weighing those up. I personally don't believe that the service should be run by EMT, I think it makes far more sense to be split it at Nottingham and have TPE take it on as part of South TPE. But it is run by EMT, there is no real desire to have it not run by EMT, and crewing it from Nottingham is by far the more sensible option when compared against establishing a tiny EMT depot at either Manchester or Liverpool.

Aye, the Sunday service is naff, but there are plenty of other trains you can make connections onto/off. My gripe is the fact the 1937 and 2037 off Piccadilly are single set rather than double sets, but realistically apart from busy times of the year it's usually just about sufficient.

 

[Starmill]

Aye, the Sunday service is naff, but there are plenty of other trains you can make connections onto/off. My gripe is the fact the 1937 and 2037 off Piccadilly are single set rather than double sets, but realistically apart from busy times of the year it's usually just about sufficient.

Even this is barely true because the fast trains from Manchester to Sheffield are 0858, 1118 and 1218 on Sundays. Although I hear that something is planned to reduce this problem in the new TP Franchise.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Everything has problems and benefits. It's about weighing those up. I personally don't believe that the service should be run by EMT, I think it makes far more sense to be split it at Nottingham and have TPE take it on as part of South TPE. But it is run by EMT, there is no real desire to have it not run by EMT, and crewing it from Nottingham is by far the more sensible option when compared against establishing a tiny EMT depot at either Manchester or Liverpool.

Aye, the Sunday service is naff, but there are plenty of other trains you can make connections onto/off. My gripe is the fact the 1937 and 2037 off Piccadilly are single set rather than double sets, but realistically apart from busy times of the year it's usually just about sufficient.

Actually it makes much more sense to run south TPE as part of EMT, South TPE is resourced from Cleethorpes and Sheffield, so suffers the same "problem" as Liverpool to Norwich.

 

[Jonfun]

How does it suffer the same "problem"? And what is this "problem"?

 

[edwin_m]

Which is just one service. It isn't 1tph all day that's being expected of XC here. Whereas we do expect that of the Liverpool - Nottingham section.

The 1TPH during the day can be worked perfectly well with trains and crews based in Nottingham, where it is possible to work to either Liverpool or Norwich and back within a shift. It's only a couple of trains at the start and end of the day that run empty between Nottingham and Liverpool. It wouldn't be economic to set up a crew depot in Liverpool for this number of trains. It's possible that crews could be hired in from another TOC, but they would end up travelling one way "on the cushions" on a train crewed by Nottingham. The other factor is whether the trains themselves are due maintenance overnight, which in turn depends on where their diagrams start the day before and end the day after.

 

[FordFocus]

The staffing of the Liverpool - Norwich line has always been interesting to me. As much as Nottingham crews will disagree with me, I don't believe they should have ended up with the route under East Midlands. The nearest depot to Liverpool is Nottingham. If anything happens in Liverpool such as crew taken ill, incident or a fatality it's at least 2 hours by road to get to the unit on top of finding spare crew. A satellite depot at Liverpool or Manchester makes sense but the costing of additional spare probably makes it unlikely because of accountants as opposed to operational reasons. Norwich as the other extreme end of the service has a depot though so I'm unsure why the western end never ended up with one.

When it was Central, did Crewe men work any part of the Liverpool - Norwich service out of interest?


When the service goes belly up I don't blame EMT for terminating at Oxford Road. I suspect they have tight PNBs at Liverpool so any delay more than 10 minutes will have a knock on effect for the rest of the service.

 

[455driver]

I'm sure that even in BR days there would be situations where drivers weren't current on all the routes signed from a given depot. And it would be sods law that the diversionary route that they need would be the one that they were due to relearn next week.

Hence the use of the word 'nearly' in the post you quoted!