EMT and Thameslink (MML)

[richieb1971]

I have subscribed to certain facebook groups and one of them is going nuts lately with the Thameslink over crowding and train cancellations. Not only do they have to deal with over crowding and cancellations but there is an apparent staff shortage as well. To top it off, EMT trains that used to call at Bedford and Luton Parkway are whizzing past half empty.

Seems to me that the government has made a really bad call here. People are suffering, especially the commuters. I'm really not sure what is going on.. Is it what was planned causing all this or is it a combination/accumulation of other things?

Bedford really needs a EMT termination from the north if a through to London train isn't on the books. At least that way you can go north. Buses are nonsense and should NOT be allowed for anything but a complete railway shutdown. If your paying a railway ticket you should go by train, no exceptions.

It appears all this is for peak times only.

 

[hwl]

Covered in numerous threads already but briefly:
1. GTR don't have enough route trained drivers for the phased Thameslink changes starting last Sunday
2. EMT don't have enough stock till Corby is electrified to run the new timetable and the ducktape solution of some short ex GC HST sets being brought in and skip stopping Bedford etc. in the peaks.
3. as a result of 2. GTR removing some proposed stops to enable more and faster capacity to Luton /Bedford.

Or a brief (3,500 word) summary:
https://www.londonreconnections.com...-flight-explaining-the-may-timetable-changes/

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I have been wondering how the EMT trains have been loading in the peak hours , with the reduction of LAP / LTN and Bedford calls , presume lots of empty seats. Anyone have any observations ?

 

[richieb1971]

You shouldn't put something into effect if you don't have the resource or capacity to do it.

Shifting EMT passengers to Thameslink right now is non nonsensical. According to reports i've heard the staff on the trains are shaking their heads as well, not just the passengers. Some of the platforms are getting over crowded now and staff on stations are ushering people behind the yellow lines on platforms.

My sympathies are with the passengers. Who ever made these decisions should be fired. There is absolutely no empathy here at all.

 

[mallard]

According to the DfT's "strategy" EMT (and its successors) will never again routinely call at stations south of Bedford (with the excpetion of the Corby services). They've decided that residents of the East Midlands have no need to visit such places (Luton Airport included; it's called "London Luton", so according to the government, it's sole purpose is to serve the population of London) and that headline journey times are more important that convinience. It's highly unlikely that they'll be any services from St. Pancras that continue north of Leicester by the time HS2 is operational. As far as the DfT is concerned, the presence of long-distance services on the MML is nothing more than an inconvenience and impediment to their "vision" of the route.

It's really unfortunate that EMT have been so complict in the wholescale downgrade of their mainline. They could have produced publicity making it clear that the diminishment in services was due to DfT edicts and for the "benefit" of Thameslink commuters, could even encouraged affected passengers to write to their MPs or run an unofficial "consultation" to show how disasterous the changes really are (things like this have happened before when train services have been downgraded), but instead they've tried to play it off as service enhancements at their own initiative...

 

[talldave]

Sadly this is the railway, nobody's going to get fired for incompetence.

 

[DanDaDriver]

All part of the DFT’s masterplan that mere mortals cannot comprehend.

See also: Upgrade the MML for 125mph running and then give 100mph commuter trains priority on the fast lines.

 

[Robertj21a]

I have subscribed to certain facebook groups and one of them is going nuts lately with the Thameslink over crowding and train cancellations. Not only do they have to deal with over crowding and cancellations but there is an apparent staff shortage as well. To top it off, EMT trains that used to call at Bedford and Luton Parkway are whizzing past half empty.

Seems to me that the government has made a really bad call here. People are suffering, especially the commuters. I'm really not sure what is going on.. Is it what was planned causing all this or is it a combination/accumulation of other things?

Bedford really needs a EMT termination from the north if a through to London train isn't on the books. At least that way you can go north. Buses are nonsense and should NOT be allowed for anything but a complete railway shutdown. If your paying a railway ticket you should go by train, no exceptions.

It appears all this is for peak times only.

To be fair to EMT, they have been advertising these changes, particularly the Bedford/Wellingborough and Luton issues for a very long time.

 

[Senex]

All part of the DFT’s masterplan that mere mortals cannot comprehend.

See also: Upgrade the MML for 125mph running and then give 100mph commuter trains priority on the fast lines.

Because serving the needs of the London commuters is so much more important than providing fast services between places like Derby, Nottingham, Sheffield, and London, even though London is (unfortunately) still the centre of political, business, and financial power that those from the provinces need to get to (and from!) on a very regular basis to try to make sure that their areas do not lose out totally.

 

[skifans]

Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree about the tail tickets only on trains. While I paid to get to a to be on a train, do you know what annoys me far more then a replacement bus? Being stuck at A. And I'm not necessarily taking about cancellations. In the previous timetable the last train from Preston to Lancaster was around 9pm on Saturdays. However, using buses took the options back to 11pm. How many times did I actually use them? Once. But they provided a useful backup plan in case something went wrong/changed. I'm out longer then expected, or maybe a bus to the station is late. The same thing was and still is happening on the Windermere branch on Saturdays, last train around quarter to 9. Bus later bus around half 10. Both of these routes also have stagecoach competition which runs even later, but those are expensive trips - nearly £7 I think. Which could increase the cost of my trip by 1/3. And they are alot slower then a replacement bus.

Overall, yes replacement bus services aren't as nice as trains, but they are alot better then nothing. And TOCs don't just do it for the sake of it or because they had a random fleet of buses left doing nothing, they do it because the alternative is no service, and they are alot better then no service.

 

[43096]

It's really unfortunate that EMT have been so complict in the wholescale downgrade of their mainline. They could have produced publicity making it clear that the diminishment in services was due to DfT edicts and for the "benefit" of Thameslink commuters, could even encouraged affected passengers to write to their MPs or run an unofficial "consultation" to show how disasterous the changes really are (things like this have happened before when train services have been downgraded), but instead they've tried to play it off as service enhancements at their own initiative...

Don't forget the East Midlands franchise is coming up for renewal. If you were Stagecoach would you be publicly blaming the changes on the body (DfT) that is deciding if you get to keep the franchise or not? No, thought not.

 

[Skymonster]

Absolutely the right thing to do to non-stop the EMTs at Bedford and Luton / Parkway in the peaks. Commuters have got a better GTR service - or will have when the wrinkles have been sorted out - and the EMT changes mean long-distance travellers have a chance to get a seat out of St Pancras in the evening while preserving end-to-end journey times along the MML. Instead of whining, GTR customers should be appreciative that they are (will be) getting a much-improved service while EMT's timetable has suffered some significant downgrades for GTR customer's benefit.

 

[edwin_m]

According to the DfT's "strategy" EMT (and its successors) will never again routinely call at stations south of Bedford (with the excpetion of the Corby services). They've decided that residents of the East Midlands have no need to visit such places (Luton Airport included; it's called "London Luton", so according to the government, it's sole purpose is to serve the population of London) and that headline journey times are more important that convinience. It's highly unlikely that they'll be any services from St. Pancras that continue north of Leicester by the time HS2 is operational. As far as the DfT is concerned, the presence of long-distance services on the MML is nothing more than an inconvenience and impediment to their "vision" of the route.

It's really unfortunate that EMT have been so complict in the wholescale downgrade of their mainline. They could have produced publicity making it clear that the diminishment in services was due to DfT edicts and for the "benefit" of Thameslink commuters, could even encouraged affected passengers to write to their MPs or run an unofficial "consultation" to show how disasterous the changes really are (things like this have happened before when train services have been downgraded), but instead they've tried to play it off as service enhancements at their own initiative...

Source?

 

[ag51ruk]

According to the DfT's "strategy" EMT (and its successors) will never again routinely call at stations south of Bedford (with the excpetion of the Corby services). They've decided that residents of the East Midlands have no need to visit such places (Luton Airport included; it's called "London Luton", so according to the government, it's sole purpose is to serve the population of London) and that headline journey times are more important that convinience.

There are southbound EMT stops at Luton Airport Parkway at 0705, 0744, 0803 and 0931 - so a gap at 0900, but hardly "[no trains] routinely calling at stations south of Beford". All of those services come from Nottingham or Sheffield/Derby. There are plenty of services northbound right through the evening peak (including 1626 Nottingham, 1742 Derby, 1815 Corby and 1842 Sheffield). Have you actually looked at the timetable?

It's really unfortunate that EMT have been so complict in the wholescale downgrade of their mainline. They could have produced publicity making it clear that the diminishment in services was due to DfT edicts and for the "benefit" of Thameslink commuters, could even encouraged affected passengers to write to their MPs or run an unofficial "consultation" to show how disasterous the changes really are (things like this have happened before when train services have been downgraded), but instead they've tried to play it off as service enhancements at their own initiative...

The printed MML timetables have an introduction that says:

we’re making major changes to our timetable. These changes will include different departure times, quicker journeys for some routes and extended times for others. There’ll also be fewer station stops with calls removed at Bedford and Luton during peak travelling times.

This is to allow the new Thameslink timetable to be introduced, which is part of the wider £7 billion Government-sponsored Thameslink programme, and impacts services on our shared lines between Bedford and London.

https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/Documents/May Timetable from 20th.pdf

Seems honest enough to me

 

[Qwerty133]

Don't forget the East Midlands franchise is coming up for renewal. If you were Stagecoach would you be publicly blaming the changes on the body (DfT) that is deciding if you get to keep the franchise or not? No, thought not.

To be honest if I was Stagecoach I'd have handed the franchise back at the end of the original term and let someone else deal with the current mess.
At the very least I would have refused to allow and PRM works unless sufficient additional stock was found (which it hasn't been) and insisted on the money being found for a proper refurbishment of the ex GC HSTS.

 

[43096]

To be honest if I was Stagecoach I'd have handed the franchise back at the end of the original term and let someone else deal with the current mess.
At the very least I would have refused to allow and PRM works unless sufficient additional stock was found (which it hasn't been) and insisted on the money being found for a proper refurbishment of the ex GC HSTS.

Which is why you’re not running Stagecoach.

Why give back a business that you can make profit from?

 

[ooo]

If your paying a railway ticket you should go by train, no exceptions.

They are getting a discount though

any monthly or annual season ticket holders using the replacement coach service will be eligible for a 50% discount on their season ticket

 

[Qwerty133]

Which is why you’re not running Stagecoach.

Why give back a business that you can make profit from?

Because franchisees who wouldn't accept continuing to operate with the same fleet but more units having to be out of service were found additional stock and given other bribes as part of their direct awards which weren't achieved on EMT due to the management seemingly accepting the first proposals from the DfT.

 

[43096]

Because franchisees who wouldn't accept continuing to operate with the same fleet but more units having to be out of service were found additional stock and given other bribes as part of their direct awards which weren't achieved on EMT due to the management seemingly accepting the first proposals from the DfT.

"Seemingly" being the key word. You - and I - have no idea as to what negotiations took place, so you are just jumping to conclusions.

 

[43074]

I have been wondering how the EMT trains have been loading in the peak hours , with the reduction of LAP / LTN and Bedford calls , presume lots of empty seats. Anyone have any observations ?

Not that much of a difference really as far as I can see - Wellingborough and Kettering are the busiest EMT stations in the AM peak, Luton and Luton Airport didn't really contribute that many London bound passengers for EMT, whilst Bedford did but relatively few trains stopped anyway. The fresh air will be carried when stops at Wellingborough and Kettering are omitted from morning peak trains from Notts and Sheffield and electrics to Corby start. The evening peak is slightly different as there's a broader mix of customers so even the non stop Leicester services can be full and standing anyway.

 

[Qwerty133]

Wonder if the 17:29 from Sheffield still has at least one first class coach out of use (all of my recent journeys on said train have had handwritten posters on the doors to or tables in coach F saying it is not in us) and the other 2 with no more than a handful of combined passengers). .

 

[edwin_m]

Not that much of a difference really as far as I can see - Wellingborough and Kettering are the busiest EMT stations in the AM peak, Luton and Luton Airport didn't really contribute that many London bound passengers for EMT, whilst Bedford did but relatively few trains stopped anyway. The fresh air will be carried when stops at Wellingborough and Kettering are omitted from morning peak trains from Notts and Sheffield and electrics to Corby start.

The Corby electrics will provide more capacity for Wellingborough and Bedford with journey times similar to the diesels. The fresh air represents space for growth in passenger numbers from further north, who also won't have to put up with overcrowding south of Bedford.

 

[richieb1971]

It seems to me that Thameslink are at fault here. From what I am hearing the trains that stop at Bedford "only" or semi fast are stopping at every stop. I've heard that Thameslink don't have enough drivers with route knowledge to cover all the services advertised. So they are utilizing the drivers in a way that can offer a service but its definitely not the one advertised. The passengers stranded or are on trains which are over crowded want EMT back because Thameslink are failing them badly.

 

[Hadders]

Absolutely the right thing to do to non-stop the EMTs at Bedford and Luton / Parkway in the peaks. Commuters have got a better GTR service - or will have when the wrinkles have been sorted out - and the EMT changes mean long-distance travellers have a chance to get a seat out of St Pancras in the evening while preserving end-to-end journey times along the MML. Instead of whining, GTR customers should be appreciative that they are (will be) getting a much-improved service while EMT's timetable has suffered some significant downgrades for GTR customer's benefit.

And what if someone wants to travel from Luton or Bedford to Wellingborough, Kettering, Corby, Leicester, Derby, Nottingham, Sheffield etc.

 

[bramling]

Absolutely the right thing to do to non-stop the EMTs at Bedford and Luton / Parkway in the peaks. Commuters have got a better GTR service - or will have when the wrinkles have been sorted out - and the EMT changes mean long-distance travellers have a chance to get a seat out of St Pancras in the evening while preserving end-to-end journey times along the MML. Instead of whining, GTR customers should be appreciative that they are (will be) getting a much-improved service while EMT's timetable has suffered some significant downgrades for GTR customer's benefit.

I could understand the logic in the EMT calls being withdrawn and replaced with completely new limited-stop Thameslink services, as getting commuters off the EMT services should benefit both groups. Is this what has happened, or have Thameslink services simply been taken from elsewhere to make up the limited-stop services? Either way the situation for people going north from Bedford is a mess.

One wonders if redirecting 2tph off the GN towards Bedford, if they could be pathed, could please everyone?!

 

[Corncob]

I have been wondering how the EMT trains have been loading in the peak hours , with the reduction of LAP / LTN and Bedford calls , presume lots of empty seats. Anyone have any observations ?

I commute from Market Harborough. The 05.57 which used to stop at Bedford around 6.30 seems to have grown from 5 to 10 carriages so yes this is very quite. It may get busier as people realize the next train , the 06.19, no longer gets them to work on time.

 

[nottsnurse]

And what if someone wants to travel from Luton or Bedford to Wellingborough, Kettering, Corby, Leicester, Derby, Nottingham, Sheffield etc.

If they're travelling between to those places in the morning peak and back in the evening one they'll still be able to. Or they can wait until off-peak.

Seems to be a fair bit of whinging about these changes going on, but in the Bedford/Luton area primarily. EMT's core customers have had their rail service degraded to fit around the 'needs' of Thameslink and the London dormitory towns it serves, yet they still want EMT to stop at their stations!

I for one am glad this change has finally been made.

 

[whhistle]

"Seemingly" being the key word. You - and I - have no idea as to what negotiations took place, so you are just jumping to conclusions.

True but apart from more money, what else would there have been?
Which seems to fit into the whole "Stagecoach desperate for cash" above anything else.

 

[Hadders]

If they're travelling between to those places in the morning peak and back in the evening one they'll still be able to. Or they can wait until off-peak.

Seems to be a fair bit of whinging about these changes going on, but in the Bedford/Luton area primarily. EMT's core customers have had their rail service degraded to fit around the 'needs' of Thameslink and the London dormitory towns it serves, yet they still want EMT to stop at their stations!

I for one am glad this change has finally been made.

Journeys such as Leicester to Bedford, arriving at Bedford at 0900, returning at 1700 is not possible. This isn't good.

 

[Domh245]

Journeys such as Leicester to Bedford, arriving at Bedford at 0900, returning at 1700 is not possible. This isn't good.

Those journeys may not be possible, but you have to wonder how many people were making those journeys and have been inconvenienced as a result - I'm guessing that there weren't many.