EMR Overcrowding

[Starmill]

Not quite sure why it should be considered acceptable to short form a key (and by all accounts, and personal experience, very busy) timetabled flow (Nottingham - Liverpool) to provide extra capacity for "occasional" passengers wishing to watch a horse race in Uttoxeter.

I don't actually think the short forms were planned? People are assuming that they were but I think that what happened was simply that North Staffordshire line services were protected at the expense of everyone else. Given the size of the crowds it's unclear what else EMR were to do.

For example at the Lincoln Christmas Market Northern withdrew their services from Retford to Cleethorpes via Brigg and diverted them to Lincoln instead as a way to provide additional capacity. This naturally prompted furious backlash from the affected towns who had rail replacement buses. But what else can be done? In my view it makes some sense to withdraw less used services when there's a major event on. SWR withdrew their services to Dorking when the Royal Wedding was on to provide more capacity for Windsor trains for example.

 

[MCSHF007]

I don't actually think the short forms were planned? People are assuming that they were but I think that what happened was simply that North Staffordshire line services were protected at the expense of everyone else.

That's probably the case, but surely the core (universally acknowledged very busy) service should be safeguarded and not "robbed" to provide extra capacity for horse racing fans

 

[Starmill]

That's probably the case, but surely the core (universally acknowledged very busy) service should be safeguarded and not "robbed" to provide extra capacity for horse racing fans

You can argue that the Nottingham - Liverpool portions should always be protected but you'd end up with the same hobson's choice happening any day of the month when not enough units are available for traffic to cover all of the work. Which happens very very frequently. Often it's a decision to use a two car to Liverpool or cancel a whole round trip, or multiple round trips, on another line. What do you do then? What makes Liverpool - Nottingham so special?

 

[MCSHF007]

I may be wrong but providing the diagrammed (and very necessary) four car capacity on a day in day out key route ought to take priority over providing seats for those who occasionally want to travel (and possibly even pay) for the privilege of watching a few horses do their thing.

 

[Starmill]

I may be wrong but providing the diagrammed (and very necessary) four car capacity on a day in day out key route ought to take priority over providing seats for those who occasionally want to travel (and possibly even pay) for the privilege of watching a few horses do their thing.

Sadly the fact that you seek to disparage horse racing or racegoers has very little to do with how EMR plan their capacity. I am somewhat opposed to the racing of horses in general myself but I don't see why EMR should take account of that either.

 

[LowLevel]

I don’t believe it was a fatality, in fact. The conductor informed those of us on the train that the individual concerned had survived.

I can certainly confirm that overcrowding this weekend on Manchester-Sheffield was appalling, on both EMR and TPE.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2022 ==


And which will certainly not be cured by splitting the service at Nottingham.

Sadly not correct, the person didn't survive.

I may be wrong but providing the diagrammed (and very necessary) four car capacity on a day in day out key route ought to take priority over providing seats for those who occasionally want to travel (and possibly even pay) for the privilege of watching a few horses do their thing.

The Midlands Grand National is the same each year. It is far from a normal event and sees thousands travel. There isn't much anyone can do about it, it's always resulted in trains being strengthened.

 

[Failed Unit]

I suspect that it is actually easier now for EMT to strengthen services in for Saturday events. Take this weekend. You have many routes that are cut back, saving units (Mansfield - Nottingham and Matlock - Derby). The units that would be used for those 2 services would be enough for Newark - Crewe strengthening. But then we also have the other routes with cuts in Frequency (Lincoln - Leicester and Lincoln - Peterborough) saving another couple of units and the fact Nottingham - Grantham was closed for engineering works.

I have noticed EMR seem to be good at strengthening for special events even without the 153s.

But they still struggle with normal weekend loadings. Not sure if / when the 170s arrive and the 156s leave if things will be better. It is interesting that some extra 3 car 170s from Wales are coming. But if they do really reform the 158s into 3 cars that will be a big help. I think on Saturdays Lincoln - Leicester could be 3 cars all day. Saying that, if Mansfield - Nottingham was running would that route cope with 2 cars or does it need to be 3 cars all day on both branches.

It is a pity that we just can't justify keeping the 153s going for special events, but absolutely understand keeping staff knowledge upto date and maintaining a micro fleet for a few weeks of the year isn't good value for money.

 

[yorksrob]

I think the problem on this occasion was the lack of coordination between the two long distance operators.

In the past where EMR has been best by short forms and cancellations, TPE has risen to the rescue with six carriage services. Back further where 3 carriage TPE's were overwhelmed, EMT's 4 carriage services would provide some relief.

On Saturday we had the preposterous situation where both EMR and TPE were consistently short formed with various TPE's missing altogether.

Perhaps it is time all the long distance operators were consolidated into one company.

 

[dosxuk]

I think the problem on this occasion was the lack of coordination between the two long distance operators.

In the past where EMR has been best by short forms and cancellations, TPE has risen to the rescue with six carriage services. Back further where 3 carriage TPE's were overwhelmed, EMT's 4 carriage services would provide some relief.

On Saturday we had the preposterous situation where both EMR and TPE were consistently short formed with various TPE's missing altogether.

Perhaps it is time all the long distance operators were consolidated into one company.

There's never any coordination between the three operators between Sheffield and Manchester - they all assume that if they cancel a service / a whole day of services, everything will be fine because the other two companies will pick up the slack. It just all falls over, rapidly, if either of the other two is having any sort of issue themselves. There probably is enough capacity for the odd short-form between the two, but not when that's coupled with entire trips cancelled, industrial relation issues affecting operations and the increase that's been seen in leisure travel.

 

[yorksrob]

There's never any coordination between the three operators between Sheffield and Manchester - they all assume that if they cancel a service / a whole day of services, everything will be fine because the other two companies will pick up the slack. It just all falls over, rapidly, if either of the other two is having any sort of issue themselves. There probably is enough capacity for the odd short-form between the two, but not when that's coupled with entire trips cancelled, industrial relation issues affecting operations and the increase that's been seen in leisure travel.

It's quite something to see how the crowds build up when there's been a succession of short formed or missing trains.

 

[Starmill]

It would really help if platform 2C at Sheffield could be extended to 100 metres to accommodate a pair of two car 195s. Unfortunately this is likely to be many years away as it would need fairly major work.

 

[Killingworth]

It would really help if platform 2C at Sheffield could be extended to 100 metres to accommodate a pair of two car 195s. Unfortunately this is likely to be many years away as it would need fairly major work.

Not to say some may not be lobbying to get something done to increase platform capacity in other ways. It will take years, but it's accepted that something needs to be done. Electrification is currently a hindrance but could be a help. If it's not done right then we're stuck for at least a generation.

 

[43055]

I may be wrong but providing the diagrammed (and very necessary) four car capacity on a day in day out key route ought to take priority over providing seats for those who occasionally want to travel (and possibly even pay) for the privilege of watching a few horses do their thing.

The Midlands Grand national happens every year and brings thousands to Uttoxeter and every service is full and standing even with 4 coaches. If the service wasn't strengthened then you will be leaving people behind simular to what happend on another race day where a service left people behind at Derby and Tutbury with a 2 hour gap before the next service.

 

[Killingworth]

The Midlands Grand national happens every year and brings thousands to Uttoxeter and every service is full and standing even with 4 coaches. If the service wasn't strengthened then you will be leaving people behind simular to what happend on another race day where a service left people behind at Derby and Tutbury with a 2 hour gap before the next service.

Wasn't there a time when they'd rustle up some old coaches (springs in seats all gone) and a clapped out loco that had to draw the long special train forward so both halves could be in the platform? Oops, sorry a nostalgic memory, impossible to replicate today even by chartering stock from the likes of WCR?

 

[AndyMike]

Sadly not correct, the person didn't survive.

Oh dear. I suspect that might have been said for the sake of passenger well-being.

 

[Taunton]

Wasn't there a time when they'd rustle up some old coaches (springs in seats all gone) and a clapped out loco that had to draw the long special train forward so both halves could be in the platform? Oops, sorry a nostalgic memory, impossible to replicate today even by chartering stock from the likes of WCR?

Actually it wasn't that bad - exemplified by being at the Didcot museum once when we went in the 1930s GWR Excursion Stock open coach, some 80+ years old now and built specifically for bottom market travel, and non-enthusiasts in there said how nice it was inside, and they wished they had arrived from Paddington in something this good instead of a Class 800, which let alone having any seat springs gone, don't appear to have had any in the first place.

The railway has a more fundamental problem, that by their own efforts they have made operation more difficult for themselves. There have been a series of new diesel trains built in recent years, but the railway seems to delight in coming up with a range of different reasons why the previous stock all has to be withdrawn in equal numbers immediately, in fact often before the new ones turn up (or they all turn up but sit in sidings for their first couple of years). Then anything which does seem to have become spare can't be used anyway because other crews don't know what the different knobs do. This was never a problem with the original diesel multiple units, because despite being built by a whole range of different manufacturers it was ensured that they all had the same controls. Even where an operator has multiple types established, saving pennies on training leads to different crews having only individual knowledge, or it being forgotten because they don't get rostered one day on one type, other days a different type, to keep their knowledge current.

 

[liamf656]

EMR are supposedly planning on putting 4/5 coach 170s on Liverpools this summer to release Sprinters for longer Skegness trains. I believe this is temporary but I think double 170s with SDO could be the answer to the overcrowding issues on the Liverpool route. Let’s hope there are enough units to go around though as a 2 coach 170 would be a downgrade capacity-wise

 

[Starmill]

EMR are supposedly planning on putting 4/5 coach 170s on Liverpools this summer to release Sprinters for longer Skegness trains. Not sure if this arrangement will be permanent or temporary but I think double 170s with SDO could be the answer to the overcrowding issues. Let’s hope there are enough units to go around though as a 2 coach 170 would be a downgrade capacity-wise

Even a four car 170 would be a downgrade. Although there's no denying it would make life more comfortable for the people standing between Manchester and Sheffield.

 

[MattRat]

With everything going so wrong at EMR, why haven't the Government stepped in yet?

 

[LowLevel]

With everything going so wrong at EMR, why haven't the Government stepped in yet?

Who do you think is running the show? It's not an overnight fix. Until WMR get their junky new trains in order not much is going to happen on that front.

Every major decision is stamped by the Government. If anything they've signalled an intent to have Abellio/EMR in place for up to the next 6 years provided terms are agreed.

Even a four car 170 would be a downgrade. Although there's no denying it would make life more comfortable for the people standing between Manchester and Sheffield.

A 4 car 170 with 244 seats (I think it is) would still provide enough theoretical seats for most services. Friday to Monday, probably not quite enough. This does of course depend on people actually sitting next to each other and an even distribution of people between the units.

I have noticed movement in some cosmetic ways though. The EMR branding has finally been rolled out on a larger scale with signage and station repaints, presumably with the DfT Service Quality Regime due to start in a few months. I've also noticed, as it happens, Avanti have been repainting their stations.

Personally I'm hoping for a Greater Anglia style recovery from the absolute pits. We shall see!

 

[STINT47]

EMR are supposedly planning on putting 4/5 coach 170s on Liverpools this summer to release Sprinters for longer Skegness trains. I believe this is temporary but I think double 170s with SDO could be the answer to the overcrowding issues on the Liverpool route. Let’s hope there are enough units to go around though as a 2 coach 170 would be a downgrade capacity-wise

If this is going to work EMR are going to have to get on top of maintenance. Even with their current reduced timetable trains are still being short formed. If they are to meet summer demand reliability needs to improve.

Of course missing services if restored will increase pressure even further but as time goes on I get more and more doubtful thar the previous timetable will ever return.

Still it's good to know that Abellio are set to get another six years. A just reward for trashing our railway services.

 

[Starmill]

A 4 car 170 with 244 seats (I think it is) would still provide enough theoretical seats for most services. Friday to Monday, probably not quite enough. This does of course depend on people actually sitting next to each other and an even distribution of people between the units.

Yes, of course. I'd still rather have luggage blocking the doorways on a 170 than taking up seats on 158s, as seems to be common in summer owing to a lack of anywhere else to physically fit it.

 

[LowLevel]

Yes, of course. I'd still rather have luggage blocking the doorways on a 170 than taking up seats on 158s, as seems to be common in summer owing to a lack of anywhere else to physically fit it.

The chances of short forming goes up too given the lack of ability to couple on a 15x if 170 availability isn't sufficient. Not sure the plan will go ahead anyway with Wumpty Rail delaying their delightful new fleet's entry into service yet again.

 

[STINT47]

I think the time is coming for EMR to take the 170s regardless of other trains being delivered late. For to long the east Midlands has suffered with old short formed overcrowded trains.

We have been patient and continued to suffer whilst other TOCs keep our new trains but if other TOCs cannot get their new fleets in service then they should suffer the consequences of having insufficient stock and overcrowding. It will not be nice for their passengers but perhaps it will focus some minds higher up on the divide on quality and amounts of rollingn stock in different parts of the country?

EMR said when they won the franchise that abenefot of the 170s over new stock was that they could be delivered quicker. That falls down if we continue to suffer due to other areas mistakes.

 

[LowLevel]

I think the time is coming for EMR to take the 170s regardless of other trains being delivered late. For to long the east Midlands has suffered with old short formed overcrowded trains.

We have been patient and continued to suffer whilst other TOCs keep our new trains but if other TOCs cannot get their new fleets in service then they should suffer the consequences of having insufficient stock and overcrowding. It will not be nice for their passengers but perhaps it will focus some minds higher up on the divide on quality and amounts of rollingn stock in different parts of the country?

EMR said when they won the franchise that abenefot of the 170s over new stock was that they could be delivered quicker. That falls down if we continue to suffer due to other areas mistakes.

Realistically not going to happen. Bar the units that have already gone all that will occur is more 156s won't move to Northern for now.

 

[TheBigD]

Yes, of course. I'd still rather have luggage blocking the doorways on a 170 than taking up seats on 158s, as seems to be common in summer owing to a lack of anywhere else to physically fit it.

Back in Central Trains days 170s regularly coupled to 15x stock. Has either of the fleets been modified in the 15 years since Central Trains days thus now preventing 15x+170 combinations?

The 170/5 layout is also crap for luggage, though the overhead racks are a bit bigger. Only 4 luggage stacks in the 2 cars, 1 full size, 2 around 2/3rds size as they lose a large part of the bottom of the stacks which are over the coolant pipes(?) and 1 which is just 26cm wide!

 

[LowLevel]

Back in Central Trains days 170s regularly coupled to 15x stock. Has either of the fleets been modified in the 15 years since Central Trains days thus now preventing 15x+170 combinations?

The 170/5 layout is also crap for luggage, though the overhead racks are a bit bigger. Only 4 luggage stacks in the 2 cars, 1 full size, 2 around 2/3rds size as they lose a large part of the bottom of the stacks which are over the coolant pipes(?) and 1 which is just 26cm wide!

Yeah, the 15x has TrainFX fitted to it and the EMR method of work for non corridor trains relies on call for aids with a talk back facility - the two systems don't talk to each other properly so EMR won't work 15x and 170 in multi in passenger service.

 

[TheBigD]

Yeah, the 15x has TrainFX fitted to it and the EMR method of work for non corridor trains relies on call for aids with a talk back facility - the two systems don't talk to each other properly so EMR won't work 15x and 170 in multi in passenger service.

Cheers for that, thought there would be a reason.

 

[dk1]

Still it's good to know that Abellio are set to get another six years. A just reward for trashing our railway services.

These things are soon forgotten. The same could have been said of the dreadful state of Greater Anglia regional routes until just over a couple of years ago, but just look at it now.

 

[Liverpool 507]

I would hope that EMR will put additional stock on Liverpool services with the Grand National in Aintree next week. A 7 car Meridian is good capacity for the Saturday race. Must have been 2017 since a Meridian last ventured up to Liverpool.