EMR Overcrowding

[BeccaOnATrain]

I had an incident yesterday attempting to board the mid day EM train to Sheffield from Manchester Piccadilly. I've done the trip on Northern plenty of times so I'm a bit bored of the stopping service so thought I'd try out East Midlands to spice things up. Well, that was a mistake.

Realtime Trains | 1L11 1152 Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham | 19/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 1L11 1152 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham on 19/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Even after cramming people on the train with people standing all the way through the aisles there was still scores of disgruntled passengers unable to board the train. I suspect as a result the next service afterwards also had similar problems?
There was also a man on the platform in a wheel chair who I understand was unable to catch the earlier service due to lack of space.

Why are they running only 2 x 158s on such a busy route at weekends?
Is this a problem with all East Midlands services at weekends - am I best to just simply avoid them altogether? I get that it was the first weekend in a while where we've had sun and people were probably wanting to go out.. but it was truly ridiculous how many people tried to board that train - and how many people were unable to.

Also - rather than the announcer at Piccadilly Station repeatedly telling people to step back behind the red line on Platform 13 every 2 minutes why didn't anyone at the station instead think about putting up an announcement to re-direct passengers who were only planning to go as far as Sheffield to perhaps board the Northern train at 1249 instead? They could surely see how many passengers were waiting. Also do they not have any comms with the train before it pulls in to get a heads up that it was already near capacity?

I wonder if my paper ticket is eligible for delay repay too - I paid for a return via any operator as opposed to via Northern only which is cheaper.. but couldn't use the EM service in the end anyway, so.. !

 

[transportphoto]

I wonder if my paper ticket is eligible for delay repay too - I paid for a return via any operator as opposed to via Northern only which is cheaper.. but couldn't use the EM service in the end anyway, so.. !

Details of EMR’s delay repay scheme can be found here: https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/help-manage/manage/make-a-delay-repay-claim. I haven’t looked into your journey in sufficient detail as to ascertain whether you’d be eligible.

 

[Llandudno]

I had an incident yesterday attempting to board the mid day EM train to Sheffield from Manchester Piccadilly. I've done the trip on Northern plenty of times so I'm a bit bored of the stopping service so thought I'd try out East Midlands to spice things up. Well, that was a mistake.

Realtime Trains | 1L11 1152 Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham | 19/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 1L11 1152 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham on 19/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Even after cramming people on the train with people standing all the way through the aisles there was still scores of disgruntled passengers unable to board the train. I suspect as a result the next service afterwards also had similar problems?
There was also a man on the platform in a wheel chair who I understand was unable to catch the earlier service due to lack of space.

Why are they running only 2 x 158s on such a busy route at weekends?
Is this a problem with all East Midlands services at weekends - am I best to just simply avoid them altogether? I get that it was the first weekend in a while where we've had sun and people were probably wanting to go out.. but it was truly ridiculous how many people tried to board that train - and how many people were unable to.

Also - rather than the announcer at Piccadilly Station repeatedly telling people to step back behind the red line on Platform 13 every 2 minutes why didn't anyone at the station instead think about putting up an announcement to re-direct passengers who were only planning to go as far as Sheffield to perhaps board the Northern train at 1249 instead? They could surely see how many passengers were waiting. Also do they not have any comms with the train before it pulls in to get a heads up that it was already near capacity?

I wonder if my paper ticket is eligible for delay repay too - I paid for a return via any operator as opposed to via Northern only which is cheaper.. but couldn't use the EM service in the end anyway, so.. !

This is nothing new, it’s like this every Saturday and there were no big football matches in the north yesterday either!

 

[trover]

Why are they running only 2 x 158s on such a busy route at weekends?
Is this a problem with all East Midlands services at weekends - am I best to just simply avoid them altogether? I get that it was the first weekend in a while where we've had sun and people were probably wanting to go out.. but it was truly ridiculous how many people tried to board that train - and how many people were unable to.

This route is always full and standing not only at weekends but also on weekdays, when 2 2 cars sprinter are coupled together. Making things even worse is 1L10 departing Lime Street at 1051 has yet to be reinstated to the timetable.

 

[ChrisC]

I was at Sheffield yesterday morning and the 1043 EMR departure to Liverpool was exactly the same. A single 2 carriage 158 that was announced as being very busy before it arrived. Lots of passengers were left behind and were advised to catch the Northern stopping train approx 30 minutes later. Nothing new, it’s like this nearly every Saturday.

 

[LowLevel]

4 car trains leaving people behind today, sadly not helped by a fatality.

 

[dk1]

The Liverpool-Norwich route has been suffering from severe overcrowding especially at weekends & always through Manchester from as long as I can remember. It’s no different now to how it was in the 1990s.

 

[Llandudno]

The Liverpool-Norwich route has been suffering from severe overcrowding especially at weekends & always through Manchester from as long as I can remember. It’s no different now to how it was in the 1990s.

Indeed and diddly squat gets done about it!

Meanwhile lines to rural Okehampton, Newport - Cross Keys get reopened, new stations at Warrington West, Bow Street and Reston get built whilst the current, and significant untapped potential demand of Sheffield - Manchester is ignored, meaning increasing car journeys on single carriageway roads through the Peak District National Park.

 

[Skymonster]

I had an incident yesterday attempting to board the mid day EM train to Sheffield from Manchester Piccadilly. I've done the trip on Northern plenty of times so I'm a bit bored of the stopping service so thought I'd try out East Midlands to spice things up. Well, that was a mistake.

Realtime Trains | 1L11 1152 Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham | 19/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 1L11 1152 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham on 19/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Even after cramming people on the train with people standing all the way through the aisles there was still scores of disgruntled passengers unable to board the train. I suspect as a result the next service afterwards also had similar problems?
There was also a man on the platform in a wheel chair who I understand was unable to catch the earlier service due to lack of space.

Why are they running only 2 x 158s on such a busy route at weekends?
Is this a problem with all East Midlands services at weekends - am I best to just simply avoid them altogether? I get that it was the first weekend in a while where we've had sun and people were probably wanting to go out.. but it was truly ridiculous how many people tried to board that train - and how many people were unable to.

Also - rather than the announcer at Piccadilly Station repeatedly telling people to step back behind the red line on Platform 13 every 2 minutes why didn't anyone at the station instead think about putting up an announcement to re-direct passengers who were only planning to go as far as Sheffield to perhaps board the Northern train at 1249 instead? They could surely see how many passengers were waiting. Also do they not have any comms with the train before it pulls in to get a heads up that it was already near capacity?

I wonder if my paper ticket is eligible for delay repay too - I paid for a return via any operator as opposed to via Northern only which is cheaper.. but couldn't use the EM service in the end anyway, so.. !

Normally Manchester ro Sheffield (etc) just about pans out OK, BUT that is with TPE running hourly with a double 185 and the Northern stopper. Unfortunately TPE can’t be bothered to run more than two-hourly at present which makes things worse. The best approach is to board EMR at Oxford Road instead as there’s usually much more of a chance of a seat there,

 

[Failed Unit]

EMR are now high risk on most routes at weekends. Even on Grimsby- Leicester people were getting left behind. Problem is in the current environment I can’t see any improvements coming. Extra 170s seem to be stuck in the West Midlands and timetable improvements announced at the start of the franchise are forgotten about as dft attempts to save cash post covid.

 

[dk1]

EMR are now high risk on most routes at weekends. Even on Grimsby- Leicester people were getting left behind. Problem is in the current environment I can’t see any improvements coming. Extra 170s seem to be stuck in the West Midlands and timetable improvements announced at the start of the franchise are forgotten about as dft attempts to save cash post covid.

The 170s should start to drift across as 196s are accepted into traffic.

 

[306024]

This is nothing new, it’s like this every Saturday and there were no big football matches in the north yesterday either!

Watching the racing from Uttoxeter on the box yesterday afternoon a pair of 158s went past. Do EM strengthen services for horse racing?

 

[Skymonster]

Watching the racing from Uttoxeter on the box yesterday afternoon a pair of 158s went past. Do EM strengthen services for horse racing?

Sometimes, yes.

 

[Failed Unit]

Watching the racing from Uttoxeter on the box yesterday afternoon a pair of 158s went past. Do EM strengthen services for horse racing?

I was wondering why that route was 4 car yesterday. Although Derby, Stoke and Crewe all had home football matches it seemed odd.

 

[Skymonster]

I was wondering why that route was 4 car yesterday. Although Derby, Stoke and Crewe all had home football matches it seemed odd.

Even better if EMR put a Meridian on - it’s serene sitting in declassified first when they’ve not bothered to tell the normals (train manager even offered water and biscuits!!!)

 

[BeccaOnATrain]

Ohh! Thanks for merging my thread into this one - I didn't realise there was an on-going discussion about this.
It's a shame them struggling on weekends so much is such an issue - I'd love to use their services more - they go to some destinations I've not travelled too frequently. Guess I'll need some time off work and plan mid week trips.

 

[Failed Unit]

It is amazing how bad over crowding is on EMR considering many of the routes were operated by 1 car trains not so long ago. Although I know some routes such as Nottingham- Manchester and Nottingham- Mansfield are at reduced frequency now.

 

[Thomas6187]

Also - rather than the announcer at Piccadilly Station repeatedly telling people to step back behind the red line on Platform 13 every 2 minutes why didn't anyone at the station instead think about putting up an announcement to re-direct passengers who were only planning to go as far as Sheffield to perhaps board the Northern train at 1249 instead? They could surely see how many passengers were waiting. Also do they not have any comms with the train before it pulls in to get a heads up that it was already near capacity?

It would be pointless advising passenger to travel on Northern services as these too were full and standing, and turning passenger away. The 0949 turned away well over 100 passengers

 

[306024]

I was wondering why that route was 4 car yesterday. Although Derby, Stoke and Crewe all had home football matches it seemed odd.

Looking at RTT for yesterday EM also ran a couple of extra Derby - Stoke return trips before and after the sporting events, 1Z01/2/3/4.

 

[Fokx]

Unfortunately TPE can’t be bothered to run more than two-hourly at present which makes things worse.

There’s a big difference between ‘can’t be bothered’ and ‘physically can’t’.

The south route is two hourly due to both drivers and conductors pulling overtime over RDW payment and whilst TPE are also trying to train three depots on new traction and keep those who are trained competent.

 

[43055]

Why are they running only 2 x 158s on such a busy route at weekends?
Is this a problem with all East Midlands services at weekends - am I best to just simply avoid them altogether? I get that it was the first weekend in a while where we've had sun and people were probably wanting to go out.. but it was truly ridiculous how many people tried to board that train - and how many people were unable to.

It's was the Midlands Grand National in Uttoxeter yesterday which is the busiest day of the year for the town so all the trains are strengthened for this event and even some specials are added using a class 222. It is possible that the second unit for a Liverpool was used on the Crewe service instead. Looking at Real Time Trains the Liverpool - Norwich service was split at Nottingham as well with engineering works diverting the Norwich services which would of needed a extra 158 or 2.

Watching the racing from Uttoxeter on the box yesterday afternoon a pair of 158s went past. Do EM strengthen services for horse racing?

I was wondering why that route was 4 car yesterday. Although Derby, Stoke and Crewe all had home football matches it seemed odd.

2 156/158 combo's and 2 4 car 170's out on the North Staff's yesterday with 222001 on the specials.

Looking at RTT for yesterday EM also ran a couple of extra Derby - Stoke return trips before and after the sporting events, 1Z01/2/3/4.

The specials were run by 222001 which is the first 7 car 222 I have known on the North Staff's.

 

[306024]

Thanks @43055, interesting stuff.

I always enjoyed planning for special events, but was lucky to work in a TOC with lots of spare resource outside the peaks. Others, especially with a diesel fleet, seem to have a constant battle juggling their fleet for optimum use.

 

[liamf656]

Looking at RTT for yesterday EM also ran a couple of extra Derby - Stoke return trips before and after the sporting events, 1Z01/2/3/4.

222001 was allocated to these, but the 4 cars on Crewes all day might also explain the short formed Liverpools

 

[Qwerty133]

222001 was allocated to these, but the 4 cars on Crewes all day might also explain the short formed Liverpools

It yet again highlights why Derby-Crewe should have remained a standalone route and not have been extended towards Nottingham. Combining a route with frequent but irregular days with spikes in demand with a route that for which demand is basically unchanged on such days requires EMR to contribute more additional units to these services than would otherwise be the case.

 

[TheBigD]

It's was the Midlands Grand National in Uttoxeter yesterday which is the busiest day of the year for the town so all the trains are strengthened for this event and even some specials are added using a class 222. It is possible that the second unit for a Liverpool was used on the Crewe service instead. Looking at Real Time Trains the Liverpool - Norwich service was split at Nottingham as well with engineering works diverting the Norwich services which would of needed a extra 158 or 2.

The split and diversion via Loughborough doesn't need any extra units.

The normal* service requires 19 units, 12 for the Liverpool-Norwich service and 7 for the 4 car strengthening between Nottingham and Liverpool. These units have around 1hr20m to shunt at Nottingham (or often get swapped out on to other services).
When the route is split, the Liverpool-Nottingham bit requires 12 units (assuming every train is a 4 car) with 20 minutes turnaround at Nottingham. The Nottingham-Norwich section then requires 7 units with around 50 minutes turnaround at Nottingham.

*Last Saturday there were some pretty big gaps in the service east of Nottingham. Nothing from Nottingham to Norwich between 1330 and 1630.

 

[Starmill]

It yet again highlights why Derby-Crewe should have remained a standalone route and not have been extended towards Nottingham. Combining a route with frequent but irregular days with spikes in demand with a route that for which demand is basically unchanged on such days requires EMR to contribute more additional units to these services than would otherwise be the case.

The main demand for the route is to and from Nottingham, not Derby. Either people from Staffordshire travelling to and from Nottingham city centre, or people from Nottingham and the rest of the East Midlands travelling to various parts of North Wales, North West England and Western Scotland. Through services to Nottingham are kind of the point. It was wrong to split them. There is no particular need for them to go to Newark, mind, that's just what was convenient. If Lincoln services were running every hour, they could have withdrawn the Nottingham - Newark Castle portion. However to have done so yesterday would leave some 90 minute gaps. If a further 222 had been available EMR could perhaps have used one to work the Nottingham - Newark Castle portions but this rapidly gets very messy because they'd need a crew who sign the 222s and might also need route conductors.

 

[Qwerty133]

The main demand for the route is to and from Nottingham, not Derby. Either people from Staffordshire travelling to and from Nottingham city centre, or people from Nottingham and the rest of the East Midlands travelling to various parts of North Wales, North West England and Western Scotland. Through services to Nottingham are kind of the point. It was wrong to split them. There is no particular need for them to go to Newark, mind, that's just what was convenient. If Lincoln services were running every hour, they could have withdrawn the Nottingham - Newark Castle portion. However to have done so yesterday would leave some 90 minute gaps. If a further 222 had been available EMR could perhaps have used one to work the Nottingham - Newark Castle portions but this rapidly gets very messy because they'd need a crew who sign the 222s and might also need route conductors.

On a day to day basis that may be true, however as soon as there is racing at Uttoxeter (for example) it is not and it is on these days that EMR struggle to provide sufficient capacity both on the route itself and elsewhere due to the additional units needed for the route. When the service was split at Derby as often as not the timings would work out so that only 2 of the 3 diagrams needed strengthening whilst the 3rd remained at its usual capacity however now the route extends onto Nottingham it is usually 4 diagrams that need additional resources doubling the amount of extra units required and moving away from a situation that was challenging but was usually managable without knock on consequences towards one that is having an impact elsewhere in the region.

 

[AndyMike]

4 car trains leaving people behind today, sadly not helped by a fatality.

I don’t believe it was a fatality, in fact. The conductor informed those of us on the train that the individual concerned had survived.

I can certainly confirm that overcrowding this weekend on Manchester-Sheffield was appalling, on both EMR and TPE.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2022 ==

The Liverpool-Norwich route has been suffering from severe overcrowding especially at weekends & always through Manchester from as long as I can remember. It’s no different now to how it was in the 1990s.

And which will certainly not be cured by splitting the service at Nottingham.

 

[Starmill]

On a day to day basis that may be true, however as soon as there is racing at Uttoxeter (for example) it is not and it is on these days that EMR struggle to provide sufficient capacity both on the route itself and elsewhere due to the additional units needed for the route. When the service was split at Derby as often as not the timings would work out so that only 2 of the 3 diagrams needed strengthening whilst the 3rd remained at its usual capacity however now the route extends onto Nottingham it is usually 4 diagrams that need additional resources doubling the amount of extra units required and moving away from a situation that was challenging but was usually managable without knock on consequences towards one that is having an impact elsewhere in the region.

I don't think that increasing four diagrams to 4 car and providing an additional service is particularly problematic long term. For the same reasons that providing 2+3 or even 3+3 170 sets to Skegness will probably not be an issue long term. Or providing the same when the Lincoln Christmas Market is on. Of course if you ended up with multiple of these at the same time you'd have a problem. At the moment the shortages are going to be felt somewhere regardless. Not being able to use one car trains has also had that effect. Uttoxeter really did have a very large amount of capacity this weekend because the 222 was an additional to the four cars, rather than a replacement for some of them.

 

[MCSHF007]

Not quite sure why it should be considered acceptable to short form a key (and by all accounts, and personal experience, very busy) timetabled flow (Nottingham - Liverpool) to provide extra capacity for "occasional" passengers wishing to watch a horse race in Uttoxeter.