Emr - multiple ticket checks

[m_m]

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone can shed any light on this.

Yesterday at St Pancras, 2132 to Sheffield. All ticket gates shut for a few minutes prior to boarding. Then platform announced, gates activated, everyone has to scan tickets to get through. Then, at the start of the platform, a second ticket check for all passengers with tickets scanned again by the train crew before getting on the platform. Then, on the train, tickets checked again, but not scanned.

The train was the only one on the platforms.

Just found this odd, particularly on a service that leaves London and doesn't stop for about an hour, allowing plenty of time for on board ticket checks.

Anybody in the know have any idea why this would be?

Ta.

 

[800001]

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone can shed any light on this.

Yesterday at St Pancras, 2132 to Sheffield. All ticket gates shut for a few minutes prior to boarding. Then platform announced, gates activated, everyone has to scan tickets to get through. Then, at the start of the platform, a second ticket check for all passengers with tickets scanned again by the train crew before getting on the platform. Then, on the train, tickets checked again, but not scanned.

The train was the only one on the platforms.

Just found this odd, particularly on a service that leaves London and doesn't stop for about an hour, allowing plenty of time for on board ticket checks.

Anybody in the know have any idea why this would be?

Ta.

Do the barriers accept travel cards?

I can gain access to King’s Cross platform with travel cards and board an Edinburgh train, first stop, many times of sitting in coach A no check has been done.

Maybe looking at things like that?

Also, Train manager may not be aware of the platform check.

 

[Trainman40083]

There is no limit to how many ticket checks there can be. Maybe the TM didn't want to walk the train.

 

[800001]

There is no limit to how many ticket checks there can be. Maybe the TM didn't want to walk the train.

The poster states the TM did do a check, so it was barrier, platform and TM ticket checks.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone can shed any light on this.

Yesterday at St Pancras, 2132 to Sheffield. All ticket gates shut for a few minutes prior to boarding. Then platform announced, gates activated, everyone has to scan tickets to get through. Then, at the start of the platform, a second ticket check for all passengers with tickets scanned again by the train crew before getting on the platform. Then, on the train, tickets checked again, but not scanned.

The train was the only one on the platforms.

Just found this odd, particularly on a service that leaves London and doesn't stop for about an hour, allowing plenty of time for on board ticket checks.

Anybody in the know have any idea why this would be?

Ta.

Essentially, the ticket barriers aren't programmed for each particular service. They were out those who don't have any ticket and can reject certain tickets types for a manual check, but they will still allow a huge number of tickets through which aren't necessarily valid for the particular train.

The manual check on the platform will be to ensure people are holding a valid ticket for the specific train.

As for the on train check, different guards/TMs/Conductors have different ways of working. I like to have a rough idea of where people a going. I can't possibly memorise where each individual person is travelling to, but I can spot tickets for destinations which require a connection. I can then confirm the passenger knows where they need to change trains and tailor my arrival announcements to suit. It also makes me aware of any potentially problematic connections where even a small delay might need me to request a hold. I'm also more likely to remember who's onboard if I check their ticket and directly interact with them, so after subsequent stops I'm more likely to remember that I've already checked their ticket and don't need to bother them again. The direct interaction also makes me more "available and present" for passengers - simply walking through the train, many passengers won't even notice me, or might mistake me for catering/cleaning/security staff - asking for their ticket makes them more aware of my presence and confirms that I'm the person who may be likely to help them if they have any problems or queries.

There is no limit to how many ticket checks there can be.

You'd be amazed at how many people think there should be a limit and get extremely annoyed because they had their ticket checked 3 hours ago and now, 2 crew changes later, you're asking for their ticket "again? *eye roll* *sigh* *tut*"

 

[Trainman40083]

Essentially, the ticket barriers aren't programmed for each particular service. They were out those who don't have any ticket and can reject certain tickets types for a manual check, but they will still allow a huge number of tickets through which aren't necessarily valid for the particular train.

The manual check on the platform will be to ensure people are holding a valid ticket for the specific train.

As for the on train check, different guards/TMs/Conductors have different ways of working. I like to have a rough idea of where people a going. I can't possibly memorise where each individual person is travelling to, but I can spot tickets for destinations which require a connection. I can then confirm the passenger knows where they need to change trains and tailor my arrival announcements to suit. It also makes me aware of any potentially problematic connections where even a small delay might need me to request a hold. I'm also more likely to remember who's onboard if I check their ticket and directly interact with them, so after subsequent stops I'm more likely to remember that I've already checked their ticket and don't need to bother them again. The direct interaction also makes me more "available and present" for passengers - simply walking through the train, many passengers won't even notice me, or might mistake me for catering/cleaning/security staff - asking for their ticket makes them more aware of my presence and confirms that I'm the person who may be likely to help them if they have any problems or queries.


You'd be amazed at how many people think there should be a limit and get extremely annoyed because they had their ticket checked 3 hours ago and now, 2 crew changes later, you're asking for their ticket "again? *eye roll* *sigh* *tut*"

I have had a guard check my ticket, then Revenue Protection check . They can check it as many times as they like if they find the people who haven't got one.

 

[Discuss223]

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone can shed any light on this.

Yesterday at St Pancras, 2132 to Sheffield. All ticket gates shut for a few minutes prior to boarding. Then platform announced, gates activated, everyone has to scan tickets to get through. Then, at the start of the platform, a second ticket check for all passengers with tickets scanned again by the train crew before getting on the platform. Then, on the train, tickets checked again, but not scanned.

The train was the only one on the platforms.

Just found this odd, particularly on a service that leaves London and doesn't stop for about an hour, allowing plenty of time for on board ticket checks.

Anybody in the know have any idea why this would be?

Ta.

Revenue Protection Officers might conduct additional checks on tickets beyond the barrier, for example to check that a Railcard discounted ticket has valid ID and is being used correctly and also to ensure that customers travelling are using the right train e.g. if they have an Advance for a 16:04 to Leicester, that they are not boarding the 15:50 to Leicester. EMR have Revenue Protection drive on at the minute, including updated passenger information - warning of Penalty Fares and additional ticket checks at stations, for example Nottingham has just undergone a bridge closure to aid inspections.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==

I can then confirm the passenger knows where they need to change trains

I have this when I travel and as a customer, I find this annoying and it makes me feel like you are accusing me of doughnutting. As the customer, it's our legal duty to know where to change trains as per our ticket. If we require clarification on that, we will ask for it. And if someone is fleeing domestic violence then they won't appreciate having their itinerary announced to the carriage. EMR is working with charity Safe Spaces to end domestic abuse.

 

[transportphoto]

I have this when I travel and as a customer, I find this annoying and it makes me feel like you are accusing me of doughnutting. As the customer, it's our legal duty to know where to change trains as per our ticket. If we require clarification on that, we will ask for it.

I have to disagree with you here. I’d argue making sure a customer is happy with their journey is nothing more than good customer service.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I have this when I travel and as a customer, I find this annoying and it makes me feel like you are accusing me of doughnutting.

I'm not sure you understand what doughnutting is.

As the customer, it's our legal duty to know where to change trains as per our ticket. If we require clarification on that, we will ask for it.

I'm not quite so sure that any of the people who didn't even realise they needed to change trains until I mentioned it will feel the same.

And if someone is fleeing domestic violence then they won't appreciate having their itinerary announced to the carriage. EMR is working with charity Safe Spaces to end domestic abuse.

It's hardly identifying them and announcing their full itinerary to the whole carriage. Just a simple "yep (acknowledging the ticket/scan), changing at *****". It's not like they can stop anybody from seeing where they get off anyway!

 

[Russel]

You'd be amazed at how many people think there should be a limit and get extremely annoyed because they had their ticket checked 3 hours ago and now, 2 crew changes later, you're asking for their ticket "again? *eye roll* *sigh* *tut*"

I'm all for onboard ticket checks, my personal opinion is that revenue should now be the train managers primary job, but 3 ticket checks, in presumably, a short space of time, is a bit much and as a passenger, I'd find it rather annoying.

 

[OscarH]

Multiple ticket checks happens, it's not a problem, but if you're doing a full block on the platforn you might as well just open the barriers

Shame the on-board check didn't include scans (though likely didn't matter in this case with the platform block), while it's not useless, it does severely limit the usefulness

 

[Krokodil]

As the customer, it's our legal duty to know where to change trains as per our ticket.

God forbid that the staff make an effort to provide good customer service. Honestly, they can't win.

 

[Russel]

God forbid that the staff make an effort to provide good customer service. Honestly, they can't win.

Issue is, yes, there's plenty of great staff that want to provide good customer service, but there's also plenty that can't be bothered to leave the back cab or treat passengers like an inconvenience...

Passengers have very little consistency.

 

[LowLevel]

Revenue Protection Officers might conduct additional checks on tickets beyond the barrier, for example to check that a Railcard discounted ticket has valid ID and is being used correctly and also to ensure that customers travelling are using the right train e.g. if they have an Advance for a 16:04 to Leicester, that they are not boarding the 15:50 to Leicester. EMR have Revenue Protection drive on at the minute, including updated passenger information - warning of Penalty Fares and additional ticket checks at stations, for example Nottingham has just undergone a bridge closure to aid inspections.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==


I have this when I travel and as a customer, I find this annoying and it makes me feel like you are accusing me of doughnutting. As the customer, it's our legal duty to know where to change trains as per our ticket. If we require clarification on that, we will ask for it. And if someone is fleeing domestic violence then they won't appreciate having their itinerary announced to the carriage. EMR is working with charity Safe Spaces to end domestic abuse.

It's called an ice breaker, it is very common throughout society and particularly important in the UK where the national culture is "don't make a fuss". It quite often provokes a further conversation, not always on the same subject matter.

If you find it annoying, then such is life. I only tend to do it on routes that are frequented by tourists or when I know routes are disruptive and I don't recall a negative response.

 

[Krokodil]

Issue is, yes, there's plenty of great staff that want to provide good customer service, but there's also plenty that can't be bothered to leave the back cab or treat passengers like an inconvenience...

Passengers have very little consistency.

So a lazy sod who has his feet up in the back cab is a bad thing? But according to the PP, a proactive guard who sets out to help passengers is also a bad thing?

Yeah, staff can't do right on here.

 

[Iskra]

I have this when I travel and as a customer, I find this annoying and it makes me feel like you are accusing me of doughnutting. As the customer, it's our legal duty to know where to change trains as per our ticket. If we require clarification on that, we will ask for it. And if someone is fleeing domestic violence then they won't appreciate having their itinerary announced to the carriage. EMR is working with charity Safe Spaces to end domestic abuse.

I disagree. While I'm probably an 'advanced level passenger' compared to many and generally competent, a TP guard checking my Meadowhall ticket after Manchester pointing out that that particular late evening train didn't call at Meadowhall (the overwhelming majority do) once saved me an expensive taxi back from Doncaster to Sheffield! I'm sure there will also have been times when I've been advised in advance of replacement buses, disruption or delay repay entitlement, which can also be useful.

I agree with those saying that it's good customer service, positive interaction and can be helpful. Even if you don't need assistance it doesn't say much to utter the word 'thanks' and carry on doing whatever you were doing.

 

[transportphoto]

I'm all for onboard ticket checks, my personal opinion is that revenue should now be the train managers primary job

You’d probably be surprised to know that revenue is fairly low on the list of priorities. The safety of the train (and everyone on it) is at the top of the list for any Train Manager/Guard/[Senior] Conductor. Would you rather revenue be prioritised over safety?

 

[WirralLine]

When checking tickets and I can see somebody needs to change I'll always just mention it - "are you changing at X?", the answer is either yes, no im changing at Y, or "what do you mean i need to change". I'll either say cheers or whatever and move on, or advise further. I have had people travelling further afield who wernt too sure so I've printed itineraries. Never had somebody complain about me checking they know where to go!

I agree multiple full ticket checks on one train can be irritating (due to crew change or whatever). I try to do full checks at the start of a service, then try and catch everybody else throughout the journey rather than check everybody multiple times. If the guard I'm relieving tells me they have done all tickets up to this point, I'll just go through and ask for tickets from *insert last station name here*.

 

[Discuss223]

I agree multiple full ticket checks on one train can be irritating (due to crew change or whatever). I try to do full checks at the start of a service, then try and catch everybody else throughout the journey rather than check everybody multiple times.

As a customer, thank you for this. This means your customers will be able to have their tickets checked and can stow them away safely in their pockets, relax and enjoy their journey. I hate waiting half the journey for the Guard to come around, and then if I need the toilet, he usually comes round just as I nip to the loo!

 

[duffield]

When checking tickets and I can see somebody needs to change I'll always just mention it - "are you changing at X?", the answer is either yes, no im changing at Y, or "what do you mean i need to change". I'll either say cheers or whatever and move on, or advise further. I have had people travelling further afield who wernt too sure so I've printed itineraries. Never had somebody complain about me checking they know where to go!

I agree multiple full ticket checks on one train can be irritating (due to crew change or whatever). I try to do full checks at the start of a service, then try and catch everybody else throughout the journey rather than check everybody multiple times. If the guard I'm relieving tells me they have done all tickets up to this point, I'll just go through and ask for tickets from *insert last station name here*.

Also I think it's good customer service to announce it if there will be another full ticket check specifically due to a crew change. XC do seem to mostly do this on the Voyager routes at Birmingham. Passengers will be much more understanding of having their ticket checked twice if they know it's for a good reason - i.e. a totally different set of staff who can't know who's been checked and who hasn't.

 

[stuu]

I have this when I travel and as a customer, I find this annoying and it makes me feel like you are accusing me of doughnutting. As the customer, it's our legal duty to know where to change trains as per our ticket. If we require clarification on that, we will ask for it. And if someone is fleeing domestic violence then they won't appreciate having their itinerary announced to the carriage. EMR is working with charity Safe Spaces to end domestic abuse.

Christ on a bike. Really? You object to people trying to help others out? I would call that good customer service

Can you specify which Act of Parliament imposes a legal duty to know where to change trains?

 

[Retorus]

I have this when I travel and as a customer, I find this annoying and it makes me feel like you are accusing me of doughnutting. As the customer, it's our legal duty to know where to change trains as per our ticket. If we require clarification on that, we will ask for it. And if someone is fleeing domestic violence then they won't appreciate having their itinerary announced to the carriage. EMR is working with charity Safe Spaces to end domestic abuse.

This is a bizarre post.

 

[zero]

I can't remember exactly where, but it was between two stations on ECML or WCML where the train didn't stop for an hour or more.

Shortly after departing one staff member walked through in one direction checking tickets, then maybe halfway to the next station another guy walked through in the opposite direction and asked for tickets again; people complied until a few rows in when a passenger near me said that someone had already checked this carriage. The ticket checker said "oh really" and somehow chose to look at me, I nodded whereupon he said "all right" and walked off.

 

[Russel]

So a lazy sod who has his feet up in the back cab is a bad thing? But according to the PP, a proactive guard who sets out to help passengers is also a bad thing?

Yeah, staff can't do right on here.

So, you don't see three separate ticket checks being carried out in a short space of time, a bit overkill?

You’d probably be surprised to know that revenue is fairly low on the list of priorities. The safety of the train (and everyone on it) is at the top of the list for any Train Manager/Guard/[Senior] Conductor. Would you rather revenue be prioritised over safety?

I'm not surprised, I know how it works, however, it's 2024, with the tech we have available to us, Guards should no longer be primarily there in a safety role, and let's be realistic, DOO has worked on the Southern region and LU for decades, there is no reason it shouldn't be rolled out further, IMO, all new stock should be ordered ready for DOO with Guards transitioned to a full customer service role.

 

[Krokodil]

So, you don't see three separate ticket checks being carried out in a short space of time, a bit overkill?

Ot was a bit pointless having the automatic barriers on if there was a full block as well. But the block is justified and so was the TM's check.

 

[DMckduck]

So, you don't see three separate ticket checks being carried out in a short space of time, a bit overkill?



I'm not surprised, I know how it works, however, it's 2024, with the tech we have available to us, Guards should no longer be primarily there in a safety role, and let's be realistic, DOO has worked on the Southern region and LU for decades, there is no reason it shouldn't be rolled out further, IMO, all new stock should be ordered ready for DOO with Guards transitioned to a full customer service role.

DOO removes the second member of staff in almost all cases (Southern would have done away with them by now if Covid didn't happen)

There's plenty of threads to read about it, but you wouldn't be getting the revenue focused guard, or one at all!

 

[Discuss223]

I'm not surprised, I know how it works, however, it's 2024, with the tech we have available to us, Guards should no longer be primarily there in a safety role, and let's be realistic, DOO has worked on the Southern region and LU for decades, there is no reason it shouldn't be rolled out further, IMO, all new stock should be ordered ready for DOO with Guards transitioned to a full customer service role.

ON EMR the Train Manager also supports the customer Hosts and ensures a good standard of service, catering wise is provided. It just highlights that EMR operate longer distances than Southern and so the onboard hospitality set up is different. Interestingly, EMR First Class Hosts have revenue duties too, I wonder if the OP on this thread travelled First Class, which could be why they encountered so many inspections.

 

[Starmill]

I have this when I travel and as a customer, I find this annoying and it makes me feel like you are accusing me of doughnutting.

Luckily I really don't think it's that at all. I think it's purely we're more likely to aware of the reaction towards that kind of travel fraud.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2024 ==

ON EMR the Train Manager also supports the customer Hosts and ensures a good standard of service, catering wise is provided. It just highlights that EMR operate longer distances than Southern and so the onboard hospitality set up is different. Interestingly, EMR First Class Hosts have revenue duties too, I wonder if the OP on this thread travelled First Class, which could be why they encountered so many inspections.

Unfortunately I have a feeling all GTR routes have now abandoned the on train hospitality. More's the pity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2024 ==

Ot was a bit pointless having the automatic barriers on if there was a full block as well. But the block is justified and so was the TM's check.

This is of course part of the reason there were no ticket gates for Avanti West Coast at London Euston, Liverpool Lime Street or Glasgow Central for so long, that is, because they wanted to do manual checks. Even now there usually aren't any except for London Euston platform 1-3.

 

[Krokodil]

This is of course part of the reason there were no ticket gates for Avanti West Coast at London Euston, Liverpool Lime Street or Glasgow Central for so long, that is, because they wanted to do manual checks. Even now there usually aren't any except for London Euston platform 1-3.

Unfortunately at Liverpool they seem to do neither. After the initial flurry when the franchisee changed, I can't remember the last time that I saw an Avanti revenue block on platform 9

 

[Starmill]

Unfortunately at Liverpool they seem to do neither. After the initial flurry when the franchisee changed, I can't remember the last time that I saw an Avanti revenue block on platform 9

It all seems to have fallen off a cliff recently. I assume industrial relations plays a part.