EMR - MD Will Rogers leaves immediately

[riceuten]

I find some of the "dead hand of the state" implications here a bit tiresome.

Apropos of the strikes and safety concerns of the RMT

Further details released about East Midlands Railway strike action

EMR warns trains may be subject to short notice alterations and cancellations.

www.bbc.co.uk

The RMT union said it had been in dispute with EMR since April following the rollout of the 810 fleet (Aurora), which it said had been operating with a "significant number" of faults.

According to the RMT, EMR has been sending trains into service that are "likely to fail and require a full reset which leaves the train with no active safety systems".

The BBC has seen an operational briefing, which informs control, signalling and operations staff about undertaking an Aux Off / Aux On reset on EMR class 810 units - which may be required to recover certain faults.

"The process takes approximately 20 minutes and results in the temporary loss of several safety-critical systems, creating an increased risk of an uncontrolled evacuation and removing the driver's normal means of communication with the signaller," it states.

Eddie Dempsey, RMT general secretary, said RMT reps at EMR had been "extremely patient" and tried to engage with management.

"The company has even put out safety notices with no involvement, consultation or negotiation with our reps who represent those most at risk.

"RMT is demanding that whilst these faults exist and until these trains are shown to be operating properly, they should be taken out of service," he said.

 

[tocguard]

What are the safety issues with the 810s?

I've not seen written on here or by the unions what those concerns are.

It's the very reason for the upcoming strike throughout August. I would refer you to the wording in the public domain available on the RMT website if you wish to do so. I would not like to disclose the ongoing concerns and failings that have not made it out in the open, but there is definately more than what is mentioned.

 

[Killingworth]

I find some of the "dead hand of the state" implications here a bit tiresome.

Apropos of the strikes and safety concerns of the RMT

Further details released about East Midlands Railway strike action

EMR warns trains may be subject to short notice alterations and cancellations.

www.bbc.co.uk

The RMT union said it had been in dispute with EMR since April following the rollout of the 810 fleet (Aurora), which it said had been operating with a "significant number" of faults.

According to the RMT, EMR has been sending trains into service that are "likely to fail and require a full reset which leaves the train with no active safety systems".

The BBC has seen an operational briefing, which informs control, signalling and operations staff about undertaking an Aux Off / Aux On reset on EMR class 810 units - which may be required to recover certain faults.

"The process takes approximately 20 minutes and results in the temporary loss of several safety-critical systems, creating an increased risk of an uncontrolled evacuation and removing the driver's normal means of communication with the signaller," it states.

Eddie Dempsey, RMT general secretary, said RMT reps at EMR had been "extremely patient" and tried to engage with management.

"The company has even put out safety notices with no involvement, consultation or negotiation with our reps who represent those most at risk.

"RMT is demanding that whilst these faults exist and until these trains are shown to be operating properly, they should be taken out of service," he said.

Is there an implication there that one of these faults may have contributed to the stationary 810 at Bedford being left stranded, although protected by the red signal?

Even if it wasn't any fears that it might have been need allaying.

 

[Iskra]

Is there an implication there that one of these faults may have contributed to the stationary 810 at Bedford being left stranded, although protected by the red signal?

Even if it wasn't any fears that it might have been need allaying.

There are issues with the GSM-R not being powered while drivers reboot the train to rectify faults, which takes quite a few minutes. I'm not saying this contributed to the Bedford incident, but you can see how this could be a safety concern. Additionally, if a passenger improperly used an emergency egress system during this time, the driver would also likely be completely unaware.

 

[800001]

It's the very reason for the upcoming strike throughout August. I would refer you to the wording in the public domain available on the RMT website if you wish to do so. I would not like to disclose the ongoing concerns and failings that have not made it out in the open, but there is definately more than what is mentioned.

I have read that. And it does not list any specific safety concerns, hence my asking what these safety concerns are.

The aux off/on is not a new process, it has been used since hitachi introduced 8Xx to the uk. So I can't see why they are complaining about that now.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Similarly, have a look at the regional and connect fleets. In some cases, they are literally falling to bits. Maintenance has been been so bad and I've never travelled on another TOC ever that has been as slow to rectify such obvious cosmetic faults. Now imagine what it's like for train crews reporting faults that the public can't see. In a lot of scenarios, what the public can't see is even worse.

Regional provision of services is inadequate and has been getting worse during the tenure of EMR. Under stagecoach EMT, units were clearly maintained to a better standard and reliability was evidently much better. There was more of a mantra that services HAVE to run. Regional services are now commonly cancelled, and in comparison to some other TOCs, not usually for crew issues. It is most likely a service is cancelled these days due to unit failure or even lack of units. The units that are out working will have questionable adherence to regulatory standards.

If you think about it, there are 52 vehicles above what should've been maintained on depots as all 26 158s have been kept for the Liverpool route. Trains don't run to Cleethorpes hourly, Doncaster is still only 5 trains a day, there is only 1 train per hour on the RHL, so against the original unit plan there should be a massive surplus of units, but because they don't seem to get the time on depot because there are so many vehicles they just seem to be failing more than they used to.

I can't think of anything that has been done to increase depot capacity to better maintain units.

 

[bramling]

If you think about it, there are 52 vehicles above what should've been maintained on depots as all 26 158s have been kept for the Liverpool route. Trains don't run to Cleethorpes hourly, Doncaster is still only 5 trains a day, there is only 1 train per hour on the RHL, so against the original unit plan there should be a massive surplus of units, but because they don't seem to get the time on depot because there are so many vehicles they just seem to be failing more than they used to.

I can't think of anything that has been done to increase depot capacity to better maintain units.

Same on the Corby service. A fleet sized for 12-car operation, yet they can’t even reliably turn out a full 8-car service. Furthermore it doesn’t really seem like anyone has a grip on all this.

 

[390123]

Theres alot of very basic requirements that Hitachi have overlooked with the entire fleet ...

One very basic one is I know the 805/807 units have similar aux off/ on to reset ... But when they do shut down they are completely dead, with no marker lights on at all, unlike other units which have a back up system...so the driver has to get a portable tail lamp out of a cupboard and attach it to the end of the train...a simple oversight in design which causes alot of issues ...

 

[LCC106]

Staff are great though, and presumably that culture comes down from the top so he was doing something right.

I can assure you that great frontline staff have absolutely nothing to do with anyone at the top! (I really do mean anyone!) Please don’t think otherwise! They are purely decent people wanting to do a good job with the poor tools they have.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2026 ==

Same on the Corby service. A fleet sized for 12-car operation, yet they can’t even reliably turn out a full 8-car service. Furthermore it doesn’t really seem like anyone has a grip on all this.

They wouldn’t have enough units for 12 car operation and I believe it’s a safety concern with regard to staffing levels on three separate units coupled together.

 

[jamesst]

There seems to be a lot of people focusing solely on the Hitachi situation as being the reason he has left.

Actually, there's a lot more to it than that. Yes, the Aurora roll out hasn't gone to plan and everyone can see that and also see that it is not necessarily the fault of EMR or its people.

So why has he gone?

If we look at the wider state of affairs, there are wholly credible underlying safety concerns with the Auroras but yet the company appear to have dismissed these claims and continue to push out units in daily service with known repeat faults and failures. Safety IS the line. It shouldn't be bent to suit operational desire. Any other fleets and similar industries would "ground" a fleet until potential for safety issues to reoccur were resolved. If it's Hitachi's fault then they should pay the associated costs of hiring any replacements etc. EMR have failed to resolve this long standing issue and have jeopardised safety.

Similarly, have a look at the regional and connect fleets. In some cases, they are literally falling to bits. Maintenance has been been so bad and I've never travelled on another TOC ever that has been as slow to rectify such obvious cosmetic faults. Now imagine what it's like for train crews reporting faults that the public can't see. In a lot of scenarios, what the public can't see is even worse.

Regional provision of services is inadequate and has been getting worse during the tenure of EMR. Under stagecoach EMT, units were clearly maintained to a better standard and reliability was evidently much better. There was more of a mantra that services HAVE to run. Regional services are now commonly cancelled, and in comparison to some other TOCs, not usually for crew issues. It is most likely a service is cancelled these days due to unit failure or even lack of units. The units that are out working will have questionable adherence to regulatory standards.

Staff morale is at an all time low and the MD was the least visible, least approachable and most far removed from the reality of what goes on, for at least a decade, if not longer. So no, it's not all about the Auroras, and talk to the staff, the real staff onboard, no he won't be missed by many within the company.

Staff morale is at an all time low at the TOC that the new incoming MD has just left, I wouldnt expect mush to change...

 

[Russel]

Staff morale is at an all time low at the TOC that the new incoming MD has just left, I wouldnt expect mush to change...

Who is the replacement?

 

[jamesst]

Who is the replacement?

Neil Grabham, ex merseyrail

 

[LowLevel]

I can assure you that great frontline staff have absolutely nothing to do with anyone at the top! (I really do mean anyone!) Please don’t think otherwise! They are purely decent people wanting to do a good job with the poor tools they have.

That's not actually true I don't think. One thing that has consistently survived for the last 20 odd years at EMR and predecessor TOCs back to Midland Mainline in particular is a genuine customer first ethos for the frontline staff and that has to come from the top.

It's never going to be 100% successful but it is drilled into the staff there from the start of training that "doing the right thing" as individuals matters and that you're empowered to look after the customers.

It's not just a happy coincidence that generally good, pleasant frontline staff has always been a feature of the area.

It is just about the only thing that I would actively defend about the way that company works. There are still ex MML staff involved in the training side of things.

 

[dosxuk]

One thing that has consistently survived for the last 20 odd years at EMR and predecessor TOCs back to Midland Mainline in particular is a genuine customer first ethos for the frontline staff and that has to come from the top.

I guess that ethos never made it as far south as St Pancras gate line. There's a real attitude of "these passengers keep getting in the way of us running trains" that has been there since at least the start of the Stagecoach days. Maybe it's just them having to experience the Euston crush on their way to and from work that they think it's normal.

 

[Russel]

I guess that ethos never made it as far south as St Pancras gate line. There's a real attitude of "these passengers keep getting in the way of us running trains" that has been there since at least the start of the Stagecoach days. Maybe it's just them having to experience the Euston crush on their way to and from work that they think it's normal.

I think that is just standard London Terminus behaviour to be honest, it's not good and my experience of Euston is a good 50% shouldn't be in customer facing roles, but I can't see anything changing, Liverpool Street is just as bad.

 

[tocguard]

Neil Grabham, ex merseyrail

And ex EMR before that. At least its only 8 months as a stand in!

 

[Killingworth]

That's not actually true I don't think. One thing that has consistently survived for the last 20 odd years at EMR and predecessor TOCs back to Midland Mainline in particular is a genuine customer first ethos for the frontline staff and that has to come from the top.

It's never going to be 100% successful but it is drilled into the staff there from the start of training that "doing the right thing" as individuals matters and that you're empowered to look after the customers.

It's not just a happy coincidence that generally good, pleasant frontline staff has always been a feature of the area.

It is just about the only thing that I would actively defend about the way that company works. There are still ex MML staff involved in the training side of things.

I have attended annual EMR Stakeholder events and have been impressed by the full and frank discussions we have been able to have with a wide cross section of the EMR team from Will Rogers down. They listened and explained patiently in considerable detail how they were trying to give us what we wanted - and in detail why they often couldn't! There's been a buzz of positivity, particularly anticipation of new and refurbished trains - that aren't now coming fast enough. I really do feel for those who have been trying to deliver them and gave us dates that have not been met.

I've watched the Norwich-Liverpool route particularly carefully and am very aware of the challenges on that route. I've used them to both ends. Noting train spotters interest in 810s and 222s as they power through my station I hear feedback from them as well from those using the trains.

It is very hard working when all around is going pear-shaped. I've been there. To their immense credit every EMR employee I've encountered has adopted the can do, will do attitude I liked to see in my team. It's really tough when there is no end date in sight.

I'd add that a relative uses the Corby services so I hear feedback from there too. What a collection of issues to be resolved!

 

[Haywain]

They wouldn’t have enough units for 12 car operation and I believe it’s a safety concern with regard to staffing levels on three separate units coupled together.

When they were being introduced to EMR the narrative was that there would be 12 car services, but what transpired was that there was no prospect of reaching an agreement with the unions to allow it to happen. As it is, it’s been a regular feature since day one that we get 4 car services.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Surely having a train on the mainline without GSM-R operational is a safety case violation, even if the system is being rebooted. Similarly without rear marker lights, albeit there is a workaround here with manually positioned lamps it seems?

 

[Waterlemon]

Surely having a train on the mainline without GSM-R operational is a safety case violation, even if the system is being rebooted. Similarly without rear marker lights, albeit there is a workaround here with manually positioned lamps it seems?

Not really. We were still able to run during the GSM-R blackouts a few months ago.

 

[Harpo]

Similarly without rear marker lights, albeit there is a workaround here with manually positioned lamps it seems?

A frankly unbelievable situation with a new-build train in the 21st century.

 

[whoosh]

Do 810s have Track Circuit Actuators?

170s and 222s do.


They'll switch off when a reboot is done, won't they?

 

[Djgr]

Unfair, this mess is not his making. Now we know you can be sacked for going along with DfT rollingstock decisions as well as sacked for disagreeing with them (Chris Gibb).

The vast percentage of people who lose their jobs do so for reasons that they have no control over. I would have thought that he would had more control than most.

 

[LowLevel]

Surely having a train on the mainline without GSM-R operational is a safety case violation, even if the system is being rebooted. Similarly without rear marker lights, albeit there is a workaround here with manually positioned lamps it seems?

There's always been a workaround for failed GSM-R, even on trains on traffic.

 

[390123]

A frankly unbelievable situation with a new-build train in the 21st century.

My thoughts exactly... When you think about it , the extra risks involved in fitting them and the additional costs of maintenance just for the lamps is completely unacceptable..

 

[Haywain]

They'll switch off when a reboot is done, won't they?

If they did, and track circuits were not activated by the train without them, the signalling system isn't going to suddenly see the line as being clear.

 

[Harpo]

If they did, and track circuits were not activated by the train without them, the signalling system isn't going to suddenly see the line as being clear.

That’s exactly how trains can ‘disappear’ during leaf fall. ‘SCWO’ or showing clear when occupied as it’s often described. If the fall back were to be providing manual signalled protection further human risks come into play.

 

[Haywain]

That’s exactly how trains can ‘disappear’ during leaf fall. ‘SCWO’ or showing clear when occupied as it’s often described. If the fall back were to be providing manual signalled protection further human risks come into play.

So, what's the fall back? Signalling is supposed to fail safe.

 

[Harpo]

So, what's the fall back? Signalling is supposed to fail safe.

But the signalling won’t have failed.

The fall back I would guess (?) is the one I described, arrange signalled protection before switching off and switching on again. Hopefully though, the train’s track circuit actuators stay live?

 

[Haywain]

But the signalling won’t have failed.

If a train suddenly disappears and the signalling system assumes the line is clear, I'd call that a failure.