EMR Class 360's

[The_Train]

Yes it was. Interesting that GBRf appear to have operated this, I assumed ROG were dealing with these moves?

Has it been 'purped'? Surprised there are no images of it on Flickr yet

 

[3973EXL]

Has it been 'purped'? Surprised there are no images of it on Flickr yet

December 2021 - SIsUKTrainPix (smugmug.com)

 

[The_Train]

December 2021 - SIsUKTrainPix (smugmug.com)

Thanks Never heard of smugmug but it's a great website name

 

[MML]

Today 50% of Corby services are 4-car units, with only 3 out of 6 doubled up as 8-car units. This means there are only 9 Class 360s in operation today from a fleet of 21.
So much for the promised 12-car in the peaks!
I know there is a reduction in commuting during the working from home directives, but this level of operational performance is atrocious, particularly when customers are supposed to be socially distancing.
8-car operating has improved over recent months, but today is appalling,
Why are 12 units out of use?

 

[43102EMR]

Today 50% of Corby services are 4-car units, with only 3 out of 6 doubled up as 8-car units. This means there are only 9 Class 360s in operation today from a fleet of 21.
So much for the promised 12-car in the peaks!
I know there is a reduction in commuting during the working from home directives, but this level of operational performance is atrocious, particularly when customers are supposed to be socially distancing.
8-car operating has improved over recent months, but today is appalling,
Why are 12 units out of use?

Some are at Arlington Eastleigh for a repaint, whilst the others simply don’t work…

 

[Class360/1]

the others simply don’t work…

What happened to those that don’t work? A year and a half ago they won a golden spanner…

 

[Wivenswold]

I feel your pain, while I miss the 360's they have been used intensively for 17 years and clearly needed attention by the end. A 4 car is no fun given how few seats each unit has and if the toilet is out of order it's a nightmare.
I think GA may not need all of its 720s, shall I put in a word for you guys on the EMR?

 

[43102EMR]

What happened to those that don’t work? A year and a half ago they won a golden spanner…

Greater Anglia ran them into the ground before they left sadly…

 

[Bald Rick]

Today 50% of Corby services are 4-car units, with only 3 out of 6 doubled up as 8-car units. This means there are only 9 Class 360s in operation today from a fleet of 21.
So much for the promised 12-car in the peaks!
I know there is a reduction in commuting during the working from home directives, but this level of operational performance is atrocious, particularly when customers are supposed to be socially distancing.
8-car operating has improved over recent months, but today is appalling,
Why are 12 units out of use?

Perhaps someone had estimated passenger loading and decided that 4 cars was more than enough. Save some cash.

 

[St. Paddy]

It’s groundhog day

 

[Wyrleybart]

Perhaps someone had estimated passenger loading and decided that 4 cars was more than enough. Save some cash.

Exactly my thoughts "Bald Rick". We are constantly being reminded that the Treasury are isntructing the DfT on how to run the formerly franchised railway, and if they think 4 vice 8, then that is what will happen. After all XC are running 4 vice 2+7 on the Edinburgh - Plymouth route, with the pretence.it is driver training issues.

 

[Bald Rick]

Exactly my thoughts "Bald Rick". We are constantly being reminded that the Treasury are isntructing the DfT on how to run the formerly franchised railway, and if they think 4 vice 8, then that is what will happen. After all XC are running 4 vice 2+7 on the Edinburgh - Plymouth route, with the pretence.it is driver training issues.

I was being slightly sarcastic, and DfT wouldn’t instruct them to do this at this sort of notice. But it is possible.

The XC issue is very much because of the driver Rest Day Working ‘ban’ / lack of agreement.

 

[bramling]

Perhaps someone had estimated passenger loading and decided that 4 cars was more than enough. Save some cash.

This strategy may save some cash in the short-term, however beyond that there is the significant risk that it’s counter-productive. Someone finding themselves on an overcrowded 4-car train (and remember the yardstick for defining overcrowded has for many people changed compared to what it was in 2019) is now quite likely not to repeat the experience.

Before the latest round of WFH there was considerable moaning in my neck of the woods from people who had found they had come back to a pared-down timetable compared to where they left off.

The industry needs to find ways of cutting costs for sure, but need to find ways of doing that which aren’t going to put off users further. At the moment they seem to be doing the opposite of that - driving away those who are prepared to use the train. No doubt some of the decisions of the last decade will now be biting too - such as train interiors which were fine when people would use the train no matter what, but are no good at attracting people.

 

[Bald Rick]

This strategy may save some cash in the short-term, however beyond that there is the significant risk that it’s counter-productive. Someone finding themselves on an overcrowded 4-car train (and remember the yardstick for defining overcrowded has for many people changed compared to what it was in 2019) is now quite likely not to repeat the experience.

Before the latest round of WFH there was considerable moaning in my neck of the woods from people who had found they had come back to a pared-down timetable compared to where they left of).

The industry needs to find ways of cutting costs for sure, but need to find ways of doing that which aren’t going to put off users further. At the moment they seem to be doing the opposite of that - driving away those who are prepared to use the train. No doubt some of the decisions of the last decade will now be biting too - such as train interiors which were fine when people would use the train no matter what, but are no good at attracting people.

I agree entirely, however if there were more than 50% of seats taken on those 4 car 360s today I’d be popping a hat in the microwave ready for consumption.

 

[LowLevel]

Definitely no conspiracy, just not enough of the things that work

 

[Wyrleybart]

I was being slightly sarcastic, and DfT wouldn’t instruct them to do this at this sort of notice. But it is possible.

The XC issue is very much because of the driver Rest Day Working ‘ban’ / lack of agreement.

I believe the thumbscrews are already on the TOCs and are being gently turned, but I don't have any evidence of it yet. We need to disagree over the non resigning of the XC RDW agreement. From what I have heard rumoured it was going to be a very expensive deal, and if true I am not surprised it couldn't be agreed. How much of a bonus is necessary on top of a £70K per annum salary ?

 

[MML]

It's interesting how COVID and social distancing has affected behaviour. PRE-COVID it was common for all seats to be taken. Today it has become socially unacceptable and uncomfortable to sit immediately adjacent to someone who isn't a close colleague or friend.
It is why so many airline style seats have become one seat for the customer and the adjacent seat for their bag to provide some distancing from others.
But it is noticeable some choose to stand rather than get too close to others. This behaviour is likely to end as soon as mask wearing and the virus subsides.

What is more worrying is the reliability of these units. Siemens units are usually very reliable and it is surprising the unserviceable 360 units haven't been sent for a thorough mechanical refurbishment since they joined EMR. The rather tatty grubby interior is of secondary importance, particularly if an interior refurbishment is planned. The exterior repainting is probably the least important thing for the customer. The new paint job looks nice but it's rather cosmetic, although probably required at regular intervals to satisfy leasing requirements.
But if the units are mechanically poor and there is little likelihood of being able to restore their once good operating performance through heavy maintenance and no prospect of regaining a fleet of at least 18 out of 21 serviceable units, then I wonder whether it would be more efficient to just replace them with an further order of Aurora units which would provide fleet commonality and greater flexibility across the EMR network.
There has to be some prospect of regaining the 360 fleet serviceability otherwise good money will just be wasted.

 

[JonathanH]

But if the units are mechanically poor and there is little likelihood of being able to restore their once good operating performance through heavy maintenance and no prospect of regaining a fleet of at least 18 out of 21 serviceable units, then I wonder whether it would be more efficient to just replace them with an further order of Aurora units which would provide fleet commonality and greater flexibility across the EMR network.

No need to procure Aurora units. As someone else has pointed out, surplus 720s diverted from GA / c2c would make much more sense with a revamped interior, although the lack of a suitable depot would be something of a problem.

I guess that in practice, the 360 project is too far advanced to be discarded though.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No need to procure Aurora units. As someone else has pointed out, surplus 720s diverted from GA / c2c would make much more sense with a revamped interior, although the lack of a suitable depot would be something of a problem.

I guess that in practice, the 360 project is too far advanced to be discarded though.

These people who are simply deciding for themselves that there are too many 720s ordered make me laugh.

You would certainly think the 360 project is advanced, but realistically, what have they done? The interiors remain disgraceful, two units are painted; all of the withdrawn 442s had gone through full SWR livery and interior refurbishment, including new seats in first, and the majority had completed a traction motor change. It just shows that nothing is guaranteed to be safe.

 

[Ilovetrains43]

No need to procure Aurora units. As someone else has pointed out, surplus 720s diverted from GA / c2c would make much more sense with a revamped interior, although the lack of a suitable depot would be something of a problem.

I guess that in practice, the 360 project is too far advanced to be discarded though.

Yes, the 360s need a repaint and a project on them after the state GA left them in from First. Plus, Several units have already been done, so to discard them now would be horrific for the units.

 

[F Great Eastern]

It's interesting how COVID and social distancing has affected behaviour. PRE-COVID it was common for all seats to be taken. Today it has become socially unacceptable and uncomfortable to sit immediately adjacent to someone who isn't a close colleague or friend.
It is why so many airline style seats have become one seat for the customer and the adjacent seat for their bag to provide some distancing from others.
But it is noticeable some choose to stand rather than get too close to others. This behaviour is likely to end as soon as mask wearing and the virus subsides.

What is more worrying is the reliability of these units. Siemens units are usually very reliable and it is surprising the unserviceable 360 units haven't been sent for a thorough mechanical refurbishment since they joined EMR. The rather tatty grubby interior is of secondary importance, particularly if an interior refurbishment is planned. The exterior repainting is probably the least important thing for the customer. The new paint job looks nice but it's rather cosmetic, although probably required at regular intervals to satisfy leasing requirements.
But if the units are mechanically poor and there is little likelihood of being able to restore their once good operating performance through heavy maintenance and no prospect of regaining a fleet of at least 18 out of 21 serviceable units, then I wonder whether it would be more efficient to just replace them with an further order of Aurora units which would provide fleet commonality and greater flexibility across the EMR network.
There has to be some prospect of regaining the 360 fleet serviceability otherwise good money will just be wasted.

They went from 84,000 MTIN when they won the Golden Spanner in Dec 2019 Modern Railways to 18,000 just a year later.

Stuff doesn't fall off a cliff like that for no reason. Components and a proven design just don't get to a certain date and then the whole fleet just falls in reliability by as much as in this situation.

What kind of contract do EMR have with Siemens? Is it a 'full-service' contract that Siemens has for the 185, 350, 444 and 450 fleets or have they gone down the simpler 'maintenance' contract route (which they were on at one point for sure on Greater Anglia) which is probably cheaper?

 

[Ilovetrains43]

all of the withdrawn 442s had gone through full SWR livery and interior refurbishment, including new seats in first, and the majority had completed a traction motor change. It just shows that nothing is guaranteed to be safe.

Yes, but they were older than 360s.

 

[RailWonderer]

What kind of contract do EMR have with Siemens? Is it a 'full-service' contract that Siemens has for the 185, 350, 444 and 450 fleets or have they gone down the simpler 'maintenance' contract route (which they were on at one point for sure on Greater Anglia) which is probably cheaper?

Paying more for a full maintenance contract for improved reliability was necessary on the GE because the 360s were worked daily and intensively at a 19-20/21 basis but EMR don't need to run anywhere near as many units daily so they are far less concerned about reliability so saw it as an area to save. Light work is done at Bedford Cauldwell and heavier work at Siemsns Northampton but Northam in Hampshire is doing the refurb.

Just like with a car, you gain far more mileage and increased reliability by servicing the car at the main dealership and indipendant specialists which replace parts at the correct intervals as opposed to ignoring those intervals giving way to larger problems which ends a car's life earlier. As long as depots with experience with Siemens get used to the 360s and EMR cycles them at the right intervals over time the deficit between a basic maintenance contract and a full contract won't be as large.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just like a car, servicing at a main dealer gains you nothing but a big bill compared with a good independent (though finding the right one can be a challenge). If the TOC wants to undertake servicing itself, it can do this, some just prefer to outsource the risk.

 

[43066]

Must be a different TMS set up then. The 360's won't let you accelerate beyond 110mph.

Assuming you’re lucky enough to get one with a working Speedo …

 

[Bikeman78]

Paying more for a full maintenance contract for improved reliability was necessary on the GE because the 360s were worked daily and intensively at a 19-20/21 basis but EMR don't need to run anywhere near as many units daily so they are far less concerned about reliability so saw it as an area to save. Light work is done at Bedford Cauldwell and heavier work at Siemsns Northampton but Northam in Hampshire is doing the refurb.

The class 360 diagrams were reduced years ago, I think it was 18 from 21. Hence the pair of 317s on the Witham/Ipswich rush hour diagram. When did that start? 2015? They did briefly try to increase it back to 20 diagrams by putting 360s back on the 317 turn. It lasted a few weeks and produced 317s more often than not.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2022 ==

Assuming you’re lucky enough to get one with a working Speedo …

At the time I simply assumed that the speed monitoring equipment and/or the speedo on the unit were under reading. The same thing happened more recently with a pair of 387s. They ran at 113/114 mph for several minutes. I accept that GPS devices aren't perfect but they tend to have blips or lags when accelerating or decelerating. Unlikely to be 4 mph out for several minutes.

 

[RailWonderer]

The class 360 diagrams were reduced years ago, I think it was 18 from 21. Hence the pair of 317s on the Witham/Ipswich rush hour diagram. When did that start? 2015? They did briefly try to increase it back to 20 diagrams by putting 360s back on the 317 turn. It lasted a few weeks and produced 317s more often than not.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2022 ==


At the time I simply assumed that the speed monitoring equipment and/or the speedo on the unit were under reading. The same thing happened more recently with a pair of 387s. They ran at 113/114 mph for several minutes. I accept that GPS devices aren't perfect but they tend to have blips or lags when accelerating or decelerating. Unlikely to be 4 mph out for several minutes.

I remember when they did, 2018-19 ish but in the morning peak I'm sure they ran more than 17, I have the diagrams listed (added manually by me). All exclude ECS moves.

07:18 ex WTM - 8 car,
06:47 ex CET - 12 car,
06:47 ex CLT - 12 car,
07:03 ex SMK - 8/12 car,
05:23 ex LST - 12 car,
07:38 ex IPS - 8 car
07:58 ex HWC and 08:00 ex WOT - 8 car
08:11 ex CLT and 07:38 ex WOT - 8 car
and one more on the Harwich Manningtree shuttle.

 

[Fincra5]

Interesting to see a completely unbranded unit in Cricklewood Sidings.

In the right light, you can see the marks of the original Great Eastern branding.

 

[Edvid]

Finally made a trip north of Bedford on the 360s today. Not sure if it's been explicitly mentioned on this thread yet but they definitely reach 110 mph in passenger service between Bedford and Wellingborough on the fast lines (GPS mobile app), which to me is still a bit novel even though I've travelled on the Meridians - mostly between Luton and London - quite often in the past.

 

[spotify95]

Finally made a trip north of Bedford on the 360s today. Not sure if it's been explicitly mentioned on this thread yet but they definitely reach 110 mph in passenger service between Bedford and Wellingborough on the fast lines (GPS mobile app), which to me is still a bit novel even though I've travelled on the Meridians - mostly between Luton and London - quite often in the past.

Ironically, the only part of the MML in which the 360s will get to 110mph, is between Bedford and Wellingborough.
South of Bedford, all EMU's are limited to 100mph due to constraints with the overhead line equipment, whereas north of Wellingborough the 360s change onto the Slow lines either just after Wellingborough (slow lines = 90mph max), or just before Kettering (have to slow down for Kettering South Junction = 30mph across points).
Going Southbound from Kettering to Wellingborough, the 360s tend to stay on the Slows (90mph max - you can notice the difference between this and the 120mph max that the 222s can do on that stretch) and switch to the Fasts just south of Wellingborough.

At least the 360s don't have metallic film in the windows, so GPS (and other signals like FM/DAB/3G/4G/5G) actually manages to get through the glass and into the train. The same cannot be said for the 222s.