EMR Class 360's

[hairybear]

Re 360, I am fully aware you have a unit on maintenence but for 21 units that's only 1, and GE managed to turn out 20 units.

IF you have "a couple out for repainting" that's still 18 - so something is badly badly wrong if there are another 6 stopped.

This is 60% availability only which is appalling for a type that generically can return 96%.

2 are on maintenance each day, 2 are at eastleigh for painting ,the remaining 5+ plus each day have faults bad enough to not be used.
They are 16 years old now and require a badly needed overhaul. Get used to it because this is how its gonna be for some time to come.

 

[MML]

Are the EMR 360s now owned or leased?
I would be contacting ROG to see whether they would be willing to provide the 5 x ex Heathrow Connect 360/2 units on a short term lease.
They were stored at Bicester MOD awaiting express freight conversion, but ROG may be happy to sub lease them in the short term until conversion becomes imminent. A little extra income for ROG rather than sitting in sidings.

 

[43096]

Are the EMR 360s now owned or leased?

Leased from Angel.

 

[Wolfie]

Are the EMR 360s now owned or leased?
I would be contacting ROG to see whether they would be willing to provide the 5 x ex Heathrow Connect 360/2 units on a short term lease.
They were stored at Bicester MOD awaiting express freight conversion, but ROG may be happy to sub lease them in the short term until conversion becomes imminent. A little extra income for ROG rather than sitting in sidings.

I may be wrong but l thought that l read that there were significant differences in safety equipment. Also, who pays?

 

[Bald Rick]

And the thing is - it really isn’t needed. Yes the trains are sometimes short formed, but in my experience of using them - in the peak - it’s not like they are crush loaded and people unable to board. North of Luton there always seem to be seats for those that want them.

 

[swt_passenger]

I may be wrong but l thought that l read that there were significant differences in safety equipment. Also, who pays?

I think the safety thing was the HEx 332s, which didn’t have TPWS.

 

[43102EMR]

Are the EMR 360s now owned or leased?
I would be contacting ROG to see whether they would be willing to provide the 5 x ex Heathrow Connect 360/2 units on a short term lease.
They were stored at Bicester MOD awaiting express freight conversion, but ROG may be happy to sub lease them in the short term until conversion becomes imminent. A little extra income for ROG rather than sitting in sidings.

The ROG units were never planned specifically for freight usage - they bought them as spot-hire units for TOCs and FOCs…

 

[MML]

I may be wrong but l thought that l read that there were significant differences in safety equipment. Also, who pays?

If EMR are paying a leasing company for their units, they shouldn't be paying for the 30% which are unserviceable.
And the leasing company should be trying to remedy the shortfall, if necessary by looking at sub lease of alternative or supplementary stock.

 

[Bald Rick]

If EMR are paying a leasing company for their units, they shouldn't be paying for the 30% which are unserviceable.

That of course depends on who is responsible for keeping them serviceable.

 

[apinnard]

That of course depends on who is responsible for keeping them serviceable.

Yep. At Eversholt we had “dry”, “wet” or “soggy” leases

 

[Wolfie]

If EMR are paying a leasing company for their units, they shouldn't be paying for the 30% which are unserviceable.
And the leasing company should be trying to remedy the shortfall, if necessary by looking at sub lease of alternative or supplementary stock.

Depends on the maintenance basis in the contract surely.

 

[F Great Eastern]

2 are on maintenance each day, 2 are at eastleigh for painting ,the remaining 5+ plus each day have faults bad enough to not be used.
They are 16 years old now and require a badly needed overhaul. Get used to it because this is how its gonna be for some time to come.

They dropped from Golden Spanner winners in 2019 at 84k MTIN to 18k I think within a year.

There's very much the belief that they were let go in terms of maintenance in their last year or so with GA. The 379s were not far behind them in 2019 but also saw a fair drop in 2020.

 

[Recessio]

Yep. At Eversholt we had “dry”, “wet” or “soggy” leases

Could you explain what this means?

 

[43096]

Could you explain what this means?

Dry - TOC responsible for all maintenance
Soggy - maintenance split; generally TOC responsible for day-to-day maintenance, ROSCO heavy work
Wet - ROSCO responsible for all maintenance

 

[Bald Rick]

Could you explain what this means?

The short version is that in a wet lease, the Rolling Stock lease company retains responsibility for maintenance. In a dry lease they just provide the train, and the lessee does the maintainence. Soggy is somewhere in between.

(Clearly there’s a lot more detail than this).

 

[Hairy Bear]

Siemens maintains them. But there's not enough staff and there not in the right place when required.
The service is run on a wing and a prayer each day !

 

[Bletchleyite]

The term comes from aviation, where a dry lease is just of an aircraft that you then operate yourself, whereas a wet lease is of an aircraft and crew etc to operate on your behalf.

That probably comes from something else, though!

 

[colchesterken]

Seems to me the people at EMT do not know how to love and care for them
when we had them on GE they were year after year the best performing units in the fleet
running flat out on the Ipswich and Clactons all day

 

[Bikeman78]

2 are on maintenance each day, 2 are at eastleigh for painting ,the remaining 5+ plus each day have faults bad enough to not be used.
They are 16 years old now and require a badly needed overhaul. Get used to it because this is how its gonna be for some time to come.

Are you able to elaborate on the nature of the faults? Any cab faults can be buried in the middle of pairs, assuming the faulty cabs aren't all facing the same way. The battered Greater Anglia class 317s routinely achieve better availability.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Seems to me the people at EMT do not know how to love and care for them
when we had them on GE they were year after year the best performing units in the fleet
running flat out on the Ipswich and Clactons all day

With respect the hammering they had on GA may well be responsible for their issues now. They should’ve been comprehensively refurbed inside and below the solebar prior to going in service.

Also don’t blame EMT. They haven’t existed for 2 years now.

 

[Bikeman78]

And the thing is - it really isn’t needed. Yes the trains are sometimes short formed, but in my experience of using them - in the peak - it’s not like they are crush loaded and people unable to board. North of Luton there always seem to be seats for those that want them.

Something has gone wrong then. The idea of the Corby trains was to soak up passengers from the longer distance trains. If the long distance trains are wedged (as reported on other threads) but the Corby trains don't even fill four cars, then the plan doesn't seem to be working.

 

[samuelmorris]

Clearly they were neglected in their last days at GA, just as they were years prior before negative PR started to get under the TOC's skin and they started making some effort to make stock presentable again. That in my opinion though, is largely irrelevant. Even if the interiors are shabby due to a lack of staff after Covid, the rest of the units should really have had an overhaul before introduction to service, they had plenty long enough. I'm not especially impressed with what I've heard so far.

 

[43102EMR]

Clearly they were neglected in their last days at GA, just as they were years prior before negative PR started to get under the TOC's skin and they started making some effort to make stock presentable again. That in my opinion though, is largely irrelevant. Even if the interiors are shabby due to a lack of staff after Covid, the rest of the units should really have had an overhaul before introduction to service, they had plenty long enough. I'm not especially impressed with what I've heard so far.

Indeed they were - having travelled on them on many occasions just before they left, it was evident they were in desperate need of TLC and that GA were running them into the ground…

 

[Hairy Bear]

Are you able to elaborate on the nature of the faults? Any cab faults can be buried in the middle of pairs, assuming the faulty cabs aren't all facing the same way. The battered Greater Anglia class 317s routinely achieve better availability.

Not personally as I don't prep them for service.
But usually the faults are on the traction package, door and toilet faults that are serious enough for them not to be used.
There's no Siemens staff there when the sets are prepped, therefore there not used, also not practical to start shunting sets around as there's no space or time allowed to do it.
The management have put no thought into potential failures each morning and the potential to elliviate them for short formed services.

 

[colchesterken]

Could they go to Ilford for repair under some sort of contract. they serviced them for 12 yrs and must know all the tricks to fix the problems.. Or even lend Ilford fitters to EMR to train their staff on the short cuts, they were top of the reliability sets for years they must basically work

 

[Bald Rick]

If the long distance trains are wedged (as reported on other threads) but the Corby trains don't even fill four cars, then the plan doesn't seem to be working.

I’d be very surprised if the long distance trains arriving at St Pancras in the morning peak are wedged. Indeed I know they’re not as I’ve seen them!

 

[Wolfie]

Seems to me the people at EMT do not know how to love and care for them
when we had them on GE they were year after year the best performing units in the fleet
running flat out on the Ipswich and Clactons all day

In the main l agree but the rot set in with GA's lack of maintenance in their final time there. As others have already said reliability plummeted. Presumably hefty remedial work is now required.

 

[43096]

Could they go to Ilford for repair under some sort of contract. they serviced them for 12 yrs and must know all the tricks to fix the problems.. Or even lend Ilford fitters to EMR to train their staff on the short cuts, they were top of the reliability sets for years they must basically work

Heavier maintenance is already contracted to Siemens at Northampton. Given a 360 is essentially a 350 without end gangways I don’t see what sending them to Ilford is going to achieve, especially as reliability dropped significantly when Ilford maintained them once Siemens were no longer involved.

 

[Bikeman78]

I’d be very surprised if the long distance trains arriving at St Pancras in the morning peak are wedged. Indeed I know they’re not as I’ve seen them!

There's plenty of reports of Sheffield and Nottingham trains being full at "off peak" times. What are the 360s like at those times? Are they full too?

 

[Starmill]

There's plenty of reports of Sheffield and Nottingham trains being full at "off peak" times. What are the 360s like at those times? Are they full too?

Is it so inconceivable that there are times of day when a lot more people might want to go between Leicester / Loughborough / Nottingham / Derby / Chesterfield / Sheffield and London but not that many between Luton / Bedford / Wellingborough and London?

A large part of why electrification and more trains was paid for in the first place was the significant number of office commuters who used Luton or Bedford to get to Central London most weekdays. Not exactly the current state of affairs.