EMR Class 360's

[DB]

Are some people on here living under a rock?

Are you referrring to me? If so, I don't see what your point is. Normally new franchisees will place any rolling stock tenders soon after they take charge.

 

[221101 Voyager]

There looks to be some 360 action going out on the WCML tomorrow.

Realtime Trains - 5Q06 1104 Northampton Emd to Cricklewood South Sidings

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 5Q05 0621 Cricklewood South Sidings to Northampton Emd

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[DG85]

Are some people on here living under a rock?

Clearly that’s where you’ve crawled from... So go back and try again.

Your ignorant comment is unnecessary

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2021 ==

Are you referrring to me? If so, I don't see what your point is. Normally new franchisees will place any rolling stock tenders soon after they take charge.

Your comment/question is valid.

 

[59CosG95]

There looks to be some 360 action going out on the WCML tomorrow.

Realtime Trains - 5Q06 1104 Northampton Emd to Cricklewood South Sidings

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 5Q05 0621 Cricklewood South Sidings to Northampton Emd

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Looks like it'll be hauled throughout with a run-round at Ferme Park.

 

[westcoaster]

Yes the little bit between junction road junction and carlton road is unwired.

 

[StewLane]

Yes the little bit between junction road junction and carlton road is unwired.

Is that another small infill that could usefully be wired, would it help other journeys?

 

[Domh245]

Is that another small infill that could usefully be wired, would it help other journeys?

Not really, unless they crack on with electrifying the rest of the MML to enable electric freight on the rest of the MML

 

[OTRail]

Not really, unless they crack on with electrifying the rest of the MML to enable electric freight on the rest of the MML

I’m positive it will be fully electrified over the coming years - hopefully that will encourage further usage and investment into MML train travel.

 

[JJS-1997]

I assume it’s just one Diesel locomotive and not both ends?

 

[Supercoss]

360 118 has moved from Cricklewood to Northampton this morning behind 47 727

360 117 has returned Ilford ( Ferme Park) Cricklewood
and last to be cascaded 360 111 has also moved
Ilford ( Ferme Park) Cricklewood on 25th
-
so all 21 units now cascaded

currently at Cricklewood ( ten units)
nearest mainline south to north

117 111 116 107 103 104

Furthest from mainline south to north

114 110 120 101

 

[Merle Haggard]

Mention in the latest edition of Modern Railways, an interior refurbishment is planned with EMR intending to go to the market seeking a contractor during 2021.
Certainly don't appear to be in any hurry to make the units fit for purpose. You'd think the next few months to May would have been the perfect opportunity for beginning the refit and repainting.

Indeed. It seems likely that the New Corby Electrics launch (whatever form, under restrictions, that takes) will be with 'new' trains that are tired looking and have worn 3+2 seating.
The problem for EMR is that fares from Northamptonshire are at Inter City levels. NRES currently quotes St Pancras - Corby single fare as usually £69, with £50 as off peak, "cheapest fare". The comparative quotes for Euston to Coventry by Avanti Pendo. are £26, £20.
Presumably the fares will be reduced considerably, but for that to increase total revenue implies a very large, presently unsatisfied, demand for travel from the county to London. Don't like to be negative, but...

 

[samuelmorris]

Presumably the fares will be reduced considerably

Are you sure? Has that been announced anywhere?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Are you sure? Has that been announced anywhere?

I have no knowledge, it was speculation based on simple logic; what demand will there be for travelling on a run-down suburban train at fares 2 or 3 times that of a comparable (actually, slightly longer) journey on a Pendolino? Very little, I expect. Remember, the formation will be 12 cars every half hour in the peak, and presumably the intention is to fill them. The new trains represent no advance in environment or journey time over the present ones, so simple economic theory suggests the only way to encourage demand is by reducing the price. Whether that will produce an increase in total revenue to justify the expense of electrification and reinstatement of lines is another matter.

 

[Nym]

Or perhaps the known plenty of space available.
Plenty of customers will get a slower starts here service for example, to have a more relaxed journey, even if it does mean 2+3 desiro seating in place of 2+2

 

[swt_passenger]

Or perhaps the known plenty of space available.
Plenty of customers will get a slower starts here service for example, to have a more relaxed journey, even if it does mean 2+3 desiro seating in place of 2+2

Didn’t the Dec 2020 EMR timetable brief already state that the trains would enter service without modification? I don’t think it’s a surprise to many...

 

[Merle Haggard]

Didn’t the Dec 2020 EMR timetable brief already state that the trains would enter service without modification? I don’t think it’s a surprise to many...

It's not a surprise in that it's been announced already (well, last month) and was pretty clear to me some time ago, but in my opinion it IS surprising that the introduction of a newly (and expensively) electrified service is launched with secondhand stock that hasn't even been refurbed.

 

[43055]

Didn’t the Dec 2020 EMR timetable brief already state that the trains would enter service without modification? I don’t think it’s a surprise to many...

I believe it did state that they will be initially.

I have no knowledge, it was speculation based on simple logic; what demand will there be for travelling on a run-down suburban train at fares 2 or 3 times that of a comparable (actually, slightly longer) journey on a Pendolino? Very little, I expect. Remember, the formation will be 12 cars every half hour in the peak, and presumably the intention is to fill them. The new trains represent no advance in environment or journey time over the present ones, so simple economic theory suggests the only way to encourage demand is by reducing the price. Whether that will produce an increase in total revenue to justify the expense of electrification and reinstatement of lines is another matter.

I very much doubt there will be a fare cut. Once the 360's are done they will be on par if not better than the current state of the 222's and by the looks of things will be the same as the 810's. Also the new timetable will create a consistent all day 30 min service instead of the current 2ph around 10-20 min apart with some shuttles between Kettering and Corby when not running through to London.

 

[Energy]

It's not a surprise in that it's been announced already (well, last month) and was pretty clear to me some time ago, but in my opinion it IS surprising that the introduction of a newly (and expensively) electrified service is launched with secondhand stock that hasn't even been refurbed.

Second hand stock is not a suprise, with the electrification only going to corby not a lot of commuter emus are needed, the 360s are the perfect number of units so it makes sense to take them than a tiny order of new EMUs.

 

[Domh245]

Didn’t the Dec 2020 EMR timetable brief already state that the trains would enter service without modification? I don’t think it’s a surprise to many...

I think there was rightfully some hope that with the delay from electrification, some units could be pushed through refurbishment quickly so that at least at launch there would be some units with (near) final specification. It does seem however that everything has been delayed by the same amount

 

[Merle Haggard]

I believe it did state that they will be initially.


I very much doubt there will be a fare cut. Once the 360's are done they will be on par if not better than the current state of the 222's and by the looks of things will be the same as the 810's. Also the new timetable will create a consistent all day 30 min service instead of the current 2ph around 10-20 min apart with some shuttles between Kettering and Corby when not running through to London.

Realistically, you're right - fare cuts just don't happen.
Although I accept the service will be better once the trains are refurbished, the current 'cheapest fare' Wellingborough to London is £47.50. that's £95 for a round trip. Wellingborough is about 65 miles from London by rail.
One alternative would be to go by car, bus or taxi to Northampton, where the similar fare is £18.60 single, saving £57.80. (and more trains than even the new Wellingborough service)
But has an every 30 minute (rather than 2 trains per hour) service from St Pancras been promised? Providing an even interval service for Northamptonshire has always been said to be impossible, due to platform occupancy at St Pancras, in the past.

I hope they don't find out that the 360s are in a worse state than they expected, having been neglected by their previous operator, and don't all get done. That has happened, I've heard somewhere...

 

[JonathanH]

Although I accept the service will be better once the trains are refurbished, the current 'cheapest fare' Wellingborough to London is £47.50. that's £95 for a round trip. Wellingborough is about 65 miles from London by rail.

Huh?

The 'round trip' from Wellingborough to London comparable with the £47.50 single fare you have quoted is £49.50, not £95. There appears to be a cheaper day return at the weekends.

The use of 360s does not justify a lower fare relative to other suitable rolling stock just because they don't have a pointy end.

 

[Energy]

I hope they don't find out that the 360s are in a worse state than they expected, having been neglected by their previous operator, and don't all get done. That has happened, I've heard somewhere...

Both EMR and GA are owned by Abellio so they will either get loads of attention despite being second hand or be neglected at EMR as well. Who is doing maintenance this time? Siemens have done it before but to save money Abellio have brought it in house at other franchises.

 

[Domh245]

Both EMR and GA are owned by Abellio so they will either get loads of attention despite being second hand or be neglected at EMR as well. Who is doing maintenance this time? Siemens have done it before but to save money Abellio have brought it in house at other franchises.

360s will have main maintenance done at Siemens Northampton, with lighter maintenance at Cauldwell

The other key difference between the LNER HSTs and the 360s is that the HSTs were going to be going from scrap until the 'grand plan' was announced a month before their retirement (and had evidently been maintained with that in mind!) - the 360 cascade has been known about for a while

 

[edwin_m]

But has an every 30 minute (rather than 2 trains per hour) service from St Pancras been promised? Providing an even interval service for Northamptonshire has always been said to be impossible, due to platform occupancy at St Pancras, in the past.

The current imbalance is because of the basic service pattern which has one Nottingham service calling at Wellingborough, Kettering and Market Harborough and the other at MH only, with the Corby providing the other service to the other two stations. The new timetable will have regular half-hourly service to Corby (calling at Wellingborough and Kettering), Nottingham (calling at MH and at least one at Kettering - can't remember if it's both) and Sheffield (non-stop to Leicester). So each of those stations will have a half-hourly service or something close to one.

If there's a platform constraint at St Pancras, it's because (leaving aside recent temporary changes) the Nottingham fast is an HST so doesn't interwork with Meridians on other services, and the timetable means it has to occupy a platform for an hour or more before its next journey. In future Nottingham and Sheffield trains will use compatible stock, and even if they don't interwork I suspect the Nottingham in one direction will be pushed round the clock so it spends more of its turnaround time in Nottingham and less at St Pancras.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Both EMR and GA are owned by Abellio so they will either get loads of attention despite being second hand or be neglected at EMR as well. Who is doing maintenance this time? Siemens have done it before but to save money Abellio have brought it in house at other franchises.

360s from First days were in full service contracts with Siemens, which carried on under National Express and Greater Anglia for the first while. Then Greater Anglia downgraded it to a more limited maintenance contracts a few years ago which I believe was not renewed and for the last couple of years it's been in-house.

The state of some of the air-con units now is pretty bad and some of them need a deep clean. When they were firmly under Siemens watch under the most comprehensive contract, it was a different story. They were not allowed to get into the state that they are now.

From what I've heard about the plans for them at EMR, they'll be on maintenance contracts (not full service) with Siemens Northampton, with lighter and simpler work done by EMR themselves at Cauldwell.

 

[43096]

360s from First days were in full service contracts with Siemens, which carried on under National Express and Greater Anglia for the first while. Then Greater Anglia downgraded it to a more limited maintenance contracts a few years ago which I believe was not renewed and for the last couple of years it's been in-house.

That is very interesting, and no doubt explains the collapse of reliability from 84,000 to 18,000 in the latest Modern Railways "spanners".

 

[F Great Eastern]

That is very interesting, and no doubt explains the collapse of reliability from 84,000 to 18,000 in the latest Modern Railways "spanners".

The same train fleet that won the golden spanner for it's category the previous year as well!

The whole thing is rather interesting, as that's quite a big downshift in their figures, considering they are on a proven reliable platform that has had very high performance figures for years on end and their brothers and sisters have to. They must have been really let go.

The other odd thing is when they won a golden spanner the year before, there was no mention of it from Abellio, who had previously had always did news items when one of their fleets won an award, like most operators do. I suspected at the time that they didn't want to highlight the fact that one of their so called less reliable fleets that is being replaced with new rolling stock that was unlikely to live up to those numbers.

I suppose that Abellio can now point to the fact that the new trains will beat those numbers, but those poor numbers are not reflective of the 360 fleet during it's life since they were new in recent years. It probably suits Abellio that they are so low however, because I can't see the Aventra platforms living up to anything like that the 360 got in previous years, but they should beat that figure.

The other thing is that First were determined not to repeat the mistakes that happened with Alstom units on Great Western and North Western and hence they signed a full service contract with Siemens for the 360s, to make it more in the manufacturers interest to not turn out such unreliable trains and also try and prevent any temptation later on down the track to skimp on maintenance. I think the Desiro UK platform reliability has shown that a full service contract has paid dividends when used. Yes it's not cheap, but it always delivers results.

 

[fgwrich]

The other thing is that First were determined not to repeat the mistakes that happened with Alstom units on Great Western and North Western and hence they signed a full service contract with Siemens for the 360s, to make it more in the manufacturers interest to not turn out such unreliable trains and also try and prevent any temptation later on down the track to skimp on maintenance. I think the Desiro UK platform reliability has shown that a full service contract has paid dividends when used. Yes it's not cheap, but it always delivers results.

The one thing that has always surprised me about this though was First choosing not to go down the full depot route taken by SWT at the time. I wonder how things would have stacked up now had the Great Eastern had it's equivalent of Northam.

A very interesting post by the way.

 

[43096]

The one thing that has always surprised me about this though was First choosing not to go down the full depot route taken by SWT at the time. I wonder how things would have stacked up now had the Great Eastern had it's equivalent of Northam.

A very interesting post by the way.

It probably wasn't quite a big enough fleet to justify a new depot. Perhaps slightly surprising Clacton wasn't handed over to Siemens, though?

 

[Ethan1852]

All Class 360 Units have now been cascaded to EMR.