EMR Class 222’s - declining reliability

[Kite159]

The situation will probably get a little worse before it gets better unfortunately.

I can see an emergency timetable coming in at some point to free up some intercity units.

 

[apinnard]

It really just ‘is what it is’ nothing more, nothing less from what I can see.

I think the problem is that the railway industry and its employees very much stick with the attitude of “it is what it is” too often, and just expects the public, which they are paid to provide a service to, to willingly accept this over and over again.

The industry inherited an old boys club of ex BR employees who have a backward understanding of what constitutes acceptable service level, because in their mind, the railways are infallible.

I own a private company that provides a service to businesses. If I was as negligent towards my clients, I’d have none left. Yet the railways still retain the attitude of “you’ll never leave us.”

 

[dk1]

I think the problem is that the railway industry and its employees very much stick with the attitude of “it is what it is” too often, and just expects the public, which they are paid to provide a service to, to willingly accept this over and over again.

The industry inherited an old boys club of ex BR employees who have a backward understanding of what constitutes acceptable service level, because in their mind, the railways are infallible.

I own a private company that provides a service to businesses. If I was as negligent towards my clients, I’d have none left. Yet the railways still retain the attitude of “you’ll never leave us.”

I was one of those old boys ex BR employees Never mattered what happened, as it was railway we were always bailed out regardless. Nothing really changed throughout privatisation and nothing has changed much now. The train service will always run.

 

[apinnard]

I was one of those old boys ex BR employees Never mattered what happened, as it was railway we were always bailed out regardless. Nothing really changed throughout privatisation and nothing has changed much now. The train service will always run.

I’m well aware. Hope you’re finally enjoying retirement up there in sunny Nelson’s County btw.

 

[dk1]

I’m well aware. Hope you’re finally enjoying retirement up there in sunny Nelson’s County btw.

Oh yes mate thank you. Not a single regret and certainly don’t miss those hideous shifts or living life deprived of alcohol.

 

[apinnard]

Oh yes mate thank you. Not a single regret and certainly don’t miss those hideous shifts or living life deprived of alcohol.

And you’re able to go to as many Wetherspoons as the wallet allows now!

 

[dk1]

And you’re able to go to as many Wetherspoons as the wallet allows now!

And being amazingly cheap with BR boxes to boot that’s never going to be a stumbling block. Just need to try and involve an 810 now or possibly a 222 wherever they finally end up.

 

[Amos390]

Well, there has now been a schedule made on Thursday for 810014 to be delivered to EMR (5Q20), some expect that to start testing in a few weeks with EMR, and I’m presuming 810015 won’t be too far after that and will start testing out of Newton Aycliffe sooner rather than later. Also, just a thought, with the 810s, what diversionary routes can they operate (maybe that the 222s couldn’t, or ones that they can), obviously I know about the Corby diversion, but are there any other viable options (say, when the line has to close at East Mids Parkway for the cooling tower demolitions)

 

[liamf656]

Well, there has now been a schedule made on Thursday for 810014 to be delivered to EMR (5Q20), some expect that to start testing in a few weeks with EMR, and I’m presuming 810015 won’t be too far after that and will start testing out of Newton Aycliffe sooner rather than later. Also, just a thought, with the 810s, what diversionary routes can they operate (maybe that the 222s couldn’t, or ones that they can), obviously I know about the Corby diversion, but are there any other viable options (say, when the line has to close at East Mids Parkway for the cooling tower demolitions)

It doesn't matter where the trains can or can't go, as staff won't sign any more routes than they already do

 

[Amos390]

It doesn't matter where the trains can or can't go, as staff won't sign any more routes than they already do

Fair enough, was just an afterthought I was wondering about, but thanks

 

[duffield]

There should be a good few 810s arriving before the next 222 departs

Do we know how many more 810s can arrive before they run out of room to accommodate them and some 222s have to go off to storage or wherever to make space?

 

[Amos390]

Do we know how many more 810s can arrive before they run out of room to accommodate them and some 222s have go off to storage or wherever to make space?

I’m assuming quite a few, especially since Etches has now got quite a lot of space and they can maybe use Cricklewood if needs be. Also, Newton Aycliffe could just holdback a few units and then send them all out at the same time if there is no space anywhere.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Actually it is getting harder to find a set with all engines running - seemingly a handful of sets out of 19/20 in service each day!

Intrigues me how you know this...

 

[TRAX]

Do we know what the average mileage of the 222 fleet is after 22 years of service ?

 

[222001]

Do we know how many more 810s can arrive before they run out of room to accommodate them and some 222s have to go off to storage or wherever to make space?

At least 2, as 222002/003 have departed since the last 810 arrived.

 

[D365]

I’m assuming quite a few, especially since Etches has now got quite a lot of space...

From where do you get the impression that Etches Park has gained more 'roads'?

 

[Railperf]

Unit 006 still consistently the best performing unit on the MML. Strangely (due to the numbering sequence) Units 15,16,17 18 and 19 also appearing to be reasonably healthy yesterday (Tue 17th Feb) - a third of the fleet. Leaving two thirds of the fleet with some sort of traction issue.

Units 10 and 104 the slowest units, with 11 close behind.

EDIT: Weds 18 Feb - 20 units out of 23 available - long term absentee 007 still out of service. 020 and 011 also in the workshops today.

On reflection, unit 10 was the worst unit out there - confirmed on three engines, but the worst en route delay at any point seemed to be 12 -13 minutes, but saved by some pathing allowances that meant a delay of no more than 8-9 minutes at the end of its journey.

At some point in the afternoon chaos reigned due to trespassers in the London area causing much bigger delays.

My concern is that units running on three engines are at risk of failure en route and possible termination. Much as I like to see a set on all five engines, it would be best if those units running around on three engines were fixed ASAP.

 

[ChilliSauce]

what are EMR's options? The 222's are EMR's best assett when maintained.
DO EMR cancel / alter some diagrams to ensure more units can be brought back up to standard?
Or carry on rinsing the fleet until so many units are on their knees that they will not have enough units to run the service?
Can EMR afford to bring across more unreliable 810's reducing the capacity to maintain and service the 222's?

Perhaps the answer is to terminate short at Leicester all Nottingham / London services. Put stops in the London / Sheffield services at Kettering and Market Harborough .. making sure that do actually connect with 2nd hand 360 service and advise all London / Nottingham Customers to travel via Grantham and ECML ....If the journey takes longer then Transport UK with just have to take the Train Delay on the chin ..

 

[liamf656]

Unit 006 still consistently the best performing unit on the MML. Strangely (due to the numbering sequence) Units 15,16,17 18 and 19 also appearing to be reasonably healthy yesterday (Tue 17th Feb) - a third of the fleet. Leaving two thirds of the fleet with some sort of traction issue.

Units 10 and 104 the slowest units, with 11 close behind.

EDIT: Weds 18 Feb - 20 units out of 23 available - long term absentee 007 still out of service. 020 and 011 also in the workshops today.

On reflection, unit 10 was the worst unit out there - confirmed on three engines, but the worst en route delay at any point seemed to be 12 -13 minutes, but saved by some pathing allowances that meant a delay of no more than 8-9 minutes at the end of its journey.

At some point in the afternoon chaos reigned due to trespassers in the London area causing much bigger delays.

My concern is that units running on three engines are at risk of failure en route and possible termination. Much as I like to see a set on all five engines, it would be best if those units running around on three engines were fixed ASAP.

Can I ask how you work out which units are better performing or not? Are you flicking through journeys on Realtimetrains or actively going out and seeing the units for yourself?

 

[Andy Pacer]

Can I ask how you work out which units are better performing or not? Are you flicking through journeys on Realtimetrains or actively going out and seeing the units for yourself?

That's what I was alluding to upthread - if it's observations on RTT then there is a lot of assumption that its performance related and not following slower trains (which happens particularly on the xx02 and xx32 from London when they start catching the Corby train around Wellingborough)

 

[Railperf]

Can I ask how you work out which units are better performing or not? Are you flicking through journeys on Realtimetrains or actively going out and seeing the units for yourself?

Realtime trains does not offer detailed enough info, It simply helps to indicate whether a train picked up delay on its journey.
There are various sources of publicly published railway data used, combined with confirmed sightings at stations.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Realtime trains does not offer detailed enough info, It simply helps to indicate whether a train picked up delay on its journey.
There are various sources of publicly published railway data used, combined with confirmed sightings at stations.

But how do you confirm by sight at the station how many engines are working? Presumably your analysis is based on what you can hear on the platform?

 

[liamf656]

Realtime trains does not offer detailed enough info, It simply helps to indicate whether a train picked up delay on its journey.
There are various sources of publicly published railway data used, combined with confirmed sightings at stations.

Where is this data that you're using please?

 

[Railperf]

That's what I was alluding to upthread - if it's observations on RTT then there is a lot of assumption that its performance related and not following slower trains (which happens particularly on the xx02 and xx32 from London when they start catching the Corby train around Wellingborough)

RTT is not detailed anough! Wellingborough in both directions is a known 'delay' point for the Intercity service, so it is not a location where data alone tells a full story.
Signal berth data is a better indicator. Especially where trains accelerate away from a station to a certain distance, x amount of signal blocks.

A group of trains that are good performers will provide a cluster of timings in the same ballpark. Check the performance of the train from multiple stops, and you then get to sort out those trains that cnsistently produce fast times compared to those that are in an average or a poor range.

Take for an example a Nottingham stopper. You can check the berth timings (detailed to the second) from all the stations that are on its stopping pattern, and then check those timings with other services with the same stopping pattern. You can do that northbound and southbound.

Combined with real observations, I.E watching trains accelerating away from stations and observing how many engines are powered up, confirms the data.
I've never seen a set consistently record poor berth times but be on five engines for example. Just as a set on three engines will never provide a fast time.
Sometimes a set on five engines can be slightly slower than another (maybe one or some of the engines are slightly derated). Or a driver may notch up slightly slower than another, but either way on a healthy set it doesn't affect the time by more than a few seconds.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2026 ==

But how do you confirm by sight at the station how many engines are working? Presumably your analysis is based on what you can hear on the platform?

Class 222 engines are pretty noisy and it is very evident when one is not working as the train accelerates out of the station. I'm the same way people note that the engine is not working under the saloon they are sitting in. It is noticeably quieter.

 

[ChilliSauce]

The industry inherited an old boys club of ex BR employees who have a backward understanding of what constitutes acceptable service level, because in their mind, the railways are infallible.

Whilst everyone is entitled to an opinion it seems you have little understanding of the effort "the old boys club" as you call it put in to try to deliver a reliable on time service for passengers.

All broken of course with the now proved failed Tory Privatisation.

30 years on from Privatisation so the majority of the "old boys club" would of retired. This is reflected in the now very low number of active staff who have Safeguarded Travel Facilities.

So I can only conclude it is this "new breed" of railway management that has taken over control of what was a very efficient industry and that quality it what your seeing today. The general excuse for late arrivals / cancellations seems to be "train delay repay can be claimed".

BR project Electrification "wires over the border" Weaver Junction to Glasgow ...completed on-time and on budget. Electrification of MML to Bedford completed on time and on budget. Electrification of ECML to Edinborough completed on-time and on budget.

Electrification of GWML .. privatisation delivering .. Completed Late, Grossly over spent and had to be pruned back so has never made Bristol or Oxford .. What it might of lacked was a bit of the "Old Boy Network"

 

[3RDGEN]

At least 2, as 222002/003 have departed since the last 810 arrived.

To confirm have all the sets for LUMO now physically left EMR/Etches Park?

 

[ChilliSauce]

RTT is not detailed anough! Wellingborough in both directions is a known 'delay' point for the Intercity service, so it is not a location where data alone tells a full story.
Signal berth data is a better indicator. Especially where trains accelerate away from a station to a certain distance, x amount of signal blocks.

A group of trains that are good performers will provide a cluster of timings in the same ballpark. Check the performance of the train from multiple stops, and you then get to sort out those trains that cnsistently produce fast times compared to those that are in an average or a poor range.

Take for an example a Nottingham stopper. You can check the berth timings (detailed to the second) from all the stations that are on its stopping pattern, and then check those timings with other services with the same stopping pattern. You can do that northbound and southbound.

Combined with real observations, I.E watching trains accelerating away from stations and observing how many engines are powered up, confirms the data.
I've never seen a set consistently record poor berth times but be on five engines for example. Just as a set on three engines will never provide a fast time.
Sometimes a set on five engines can be slightly slower than another (maybe one or some of the engines are slightly derated). Or a driver may notch up slightly slower than another, but either way on a healthy set it doesn't affect the time by more than a few seconds.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2026 ==


Class 222 engines are pretty noisy and it is very evident when one is not working as the train accelerates out of the station. I'm the same way people note that the engine is not working under the saloon they are sitting in. It is noticeably quieter.

In the Dn direction I am wondering if most of the problems at Wellingborough relate to the fact that Wellingborough South Junction is not a full ladder as there is no facing cross over from the DF to UF .. meaning the 360 to Corby has no alternative but to call in the DF platform .. so delaying anything behind it

 

[Railperf]

In the Dn direction I am wondering if most of the problems at Wellingborough relate to the fact that Wellingborough South Junction is not a full ladder as there is no facing cross over from the DF to UF .. meaning the 360 to Corby has no alternative but to call in the DF platform .. so delaying anything behind it

Exactly.
I'm wondering whether a crossover was ever planned in the area or whether it's proximity to the bend of Wellingborough station ruled it out somehow.
Probably somebody like @Bald Rick well tell us that it would cost x amount of millions to install, But the fuel and brakes bill for all the trains that have to slow down and re-accelerate there must also add up after a few years.

 

[liamf656]

To confirm have all the sets for LUMO now physically left EMR/Etches Park?

001-003 and 005 have gone. Still waiting on 004 to depart

 

[ChilliSauce]

Exactly.
I'm wondering whether a crossover was ever planned in the area or whether it's proximity to the bend of Wellingborough station ruled it out somehow.
Probably somebody like @Bald Rick well tell us that it would cost x amount of millions to install, But the fuel and brakes bill for all the trains that have to slow down and re-accelerate there must also add up after a few years.

I expect it was "value engineered out" leaving the fact that any Dn train that wishes to terminate at Wellingborough and turn back has to be put Slow Line at Sharnsbrook and then proceed to Wellingborough on the DS with it's 50mph Permitted Line Speed.