EMR Class 222’s - declining reliability

[43102EMR]

I bet Lumo can't WAIT to receive these units after absolutely being thrashed. With no disrespect to the engineers that keep them going, I hope they receive a major overhaul before they hit the WCML.

I'm getting "Hull Trains gets Adelantes" vibes from all this.

Considering none of the Meridians have had any thermal incidents yet, I’d say they’ve still got a way to go before that happens

 

[dk1]

I'm just hoping the guys at Alstom can work their magic and undo the last few years of EMR damage because I'm not looking forward to my journey home from work on the WCML being disrupted when these fail!

They’ll get plenty of work done on them and the chances of all 6 engines conking out is almost unheard of. The 222s will nearly always be able to limp out of the way.

 

[whoosh]

Do 222s have the same configuration as 220 and 221 where there are no compressors on the driving cars ?
TIA

No compressors on the driving cars on 222s, yes.

Out of interest, if a set is only running on 3 engines at the start of the day, those remaining engines will consume a lot more fuel. Is fuel shortage causing engine loss? Do the engines shut down automatically if they run out of fuel? And can a driver see if a particular vehicle is running low on fuel in a set?

People forget, or perhaps it wasn't as noticeable as the linespeed was only 110mph instead of today's 125mph, but there was a period late-MML/early EMT when it was very common for Meridians to have an engine or two not working.
The usual thing was for the remaining engines (with all the extra work to do) to overheat and derate, eventually shutting down.
Yes they do use more fuel, even more now with higher linespeed (although there is a faster speed through Market Harborough and Wellingborough to climb back upto the linespeed from afterwards).
The only 'fuel gauge' in the cab is a warning that the level has dropped below 25%.

 

[Railperf]

I'm just hoping the guys at Alstom can work their magic and undo the last few years of EMR damage because I'm not looking forward to my journey home from work on the WCML being disrupted when these fail!

No magic required. Just a bit of time in the depot maintaining / repairing faults

They’ll get plenty of work done on them and the chances of all 6 engines conking out is almost unheard of. The 222s will nearly always be able to limp out of the way.

Isnt an interior refresh on the cards?
Reliability will depend on the new maintenance regime. I understand Central Rivers will be responsible - and they are experienced with these units. I guess it will take drivers time to get up to speed with the various procedures t recover from small day to day faults and doubles.
Then it will depend on what staff and resources are available at the stabling points where the units are too far from Central Rivers to carry out repairs. A six car on five engines won't be too slow. If it goes down to four then I guess it will need some attention Asap.
Do we know what the majority of faults are that result in a set not being able to have an engine fault repaired overnight?

 

[dk1]

No magic required. Just a bit of time in the depot maintaining / repairing faults

Isnt an interior refresh on the cards?
Reliability will depend on the new maintenance regime. I understand Central Rivers will be responsible - and they are experienced with these units. I guess it will take drivers time to get up to speed with the various procedures t recover from small day to day faults and doubles.
Then it will depend on what staff and resources are available at the stabling points where the units are too far from Central Rivers to carry out repairs. A six car on five engines won't be too slow. If it goes down to four then I guess it will need some attention Asap.
Do we know what the majority of faults are that result in a set not being able to have an engine fault repaired overnight?

Hopefully a small dedicated fleet that’s looked after. Yes, refurb and removal of first class is what I understand to be happening.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Do we know what the majority of faults are that result in a set not being able to have an engine fault repaired overnight?

Might be wrong but I believe Cummins attend to some jobs on depot, but not sure if it i just CZ or whether they go to other locations like Crofton or Longsight. I am guessing it is all about the contract content.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2026 ==

Well if these units being run by this open operator keep failing then LUMO will keep having to pay out compensation to Public Owned N.Rail who basically will end up passing it on to the Public Owned Intercity Operator: Avanti.

The whole operation might become commercially unviable if the trains don't work properly

Wonder what contingency LUMO have for the rescue of their trains if they break down in section?

It is interesting to ponder. Lumo's class 803s were brand new straight out of the box, and had the benefit of experience from classes 800-802s. The 222s other other hand are 24 year old DEMUs which have worked very hard, although admittedly only really looked after at Etches Park. Although they will get a sparkly new interior, and a fresh and glossy exterior, I am sure those selfsame 24 year old electronics will not be replaced at Widnes and which may well manifest themselves in the TMS. But this time it will not be experienced EMR crews working the trains, who will have gained experience of them. AIUI the five units will be serviced / maintained at Ferme Park, CZ and Polmadie. Obviously Polmadie and Central Rivers will have experience of the sister class 221s and 220s, but I doubt Ferme Park will ever have seen one.

I think it will be seriously interesting.

 

[Railperf]

Might be wrong but I believe Cummins attend to some jobs on depot, but not sure if it i just CZ or whether they go to other locations like Crofton or Longsight. I am guessing it is all about the contract content.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2026 ==


It is interesting to ponder. Lumo's class 803s were brand new straight out of the box, and had the benefit of experience from classes 800-802s. The 222s other other hand are 24 year old DEMUs which have worked very hard, although admittedly only really looked after at Etches Park. Although they will get a sparkly new interior, and a fresh and glossy exterior, I am sure those selfsame 24 year old electronics will not be replaced at Widnes and which may well manifest themselves in the TMS. But this time it will not be experienced EMR crews working the trains, who will have gained experience of them. AIUI the five units will be serviced / maintained at Ferme Park, CZ and Polmadie. Obviously Polmadie and Central Rivers will have experience of the sister class 221s and 220s, but I doubt Ferme Park will ever have seen one.

I think it will be seriously interesting.

Hopefully Alstom at Central Rivers will be able to provide training and technical backup to Ferme Park. By now the trains are well known. So provides the correct preventative maintenance is provided they should be able to last. Do we know whether any of the sets are due major overhaul mechanically?

Thankfully the units have not been standing for months / years idle as some other recycled fleets have.

 

[800001]

Hopefully Alstom at Central Rivers will be able to provide training and technical backup to Ferme Park. By now the trains are well known. So provides the correct preventative maintenance is provided they should be able to last. Do we know whether any of the sets are due major overhaul mechanically?

Thankfully the units have not been standing for months / years idle as some other recycled fleets have.

Is Ferme Park where Lumo will stable overnight in London for their Wcml services?

 

[JonathanH]

Is Ferme Park where Lumo will stable overnight in London for their Wcml services?

The shadow paths in RTT suggests that it is an option - eg https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y14768/2026-05-21/detailed Doesn't seem likely they would get any maintenance there.

Presumably not much different from EMR stabling overnight at Cricklewood? Do units stabled overnight at Cricklewood fare any worse in service than those which go to Etches Park?

 

[800001]

The shadow paths in RTT suggests that it is an option - eg https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y14768/2026-05-21/detailed Doesn't seem likely they would get any maintenance there.

Interesting, I assumed being an Alstom unit they would have chosen Wembley, although depends on capacity there.

 

[JonathanH]

Interesting, I assumed being an Alstom unit they would have chosen Wembley, although depends on capacity there.

There is a Wembley path as well.

 

[Railperf]

Seems approx 1/3 of the fleet on all five engines, a third on four, and the remaining third on three engines. During the day another unit dropped down to four engines, and one of the units on four dropped down to three.
In total that is a lot of engines with faults needing repair!

 

[Qwerty133]

Seems approx 1/3 of the fleet on all five engines, a third on four, and the remaining third on three engines. During the day another unit dropped down to four engines, and one of the units on four dropped down to three.
In total that is a lot of engines with faults needing repair!

I wonder if there has been any adjustment to staffing patterns at the depot to account for a much reduced ability to service and maintain trains during waking hours.
With the PVR as a proportion of the full number of sets now higher than ever they only really have overnight to get faults fixed as trains are remaining in service with faults that would previously have seen them taken out of service due to there being no spares.

 

[Railperf]

Maybe Hitachi aren't too bothered about keeping 222'a running with an engine out, so we don't notice the performance difference to an 810 on diesel!!

 

[800001]

Maybe Hitachi aren't too bothered about keeping 222'a running with an engine out, so we don't notice the performance difference to an 810 on diesel!!

Well if that's the case EMR should be chasing/fining them for failing to fulfil there contract.

 

[liamf656]

Maybe Hitachi aren't too bothered about keeping 222'a running with an engine out, so we don't notice the performance difference to an 810 on diesel!!

Bit of a daft thing to say.

 

[cj_1985]

Worth remembering that while the techs at Derby have been maintaining the 222s, they'll also have been completing training on the 810s and how to maintain them, and then constant refreshers given the ongoing delays that had been face with the introduction of the 810s up till December started introducing them. Priority will probably have been on the 810 training/refreshers and not on the 222s and their systems. And thats if we ignore the already mentioned extra strain placed on the 222 fleet once the 180s were off leased...

 

[ChilliSauce]

The 222s other other hand are 24 year old DEMUs which have worked very hard, although admittedly only really looked after at Etches Park. Although they will get a sparkly new interior, and a fresh and glossy exterior, I am sure those selfsame 24 year old electronics will not be replaced at Widnes and which may well manifest themselves in the TMS.

I am just wondering how old the HST fleet was when it was re-engined.

24 year old electronics might very well go on for another 24 years ..

But ask yourself this: If you went to a 2nd hand car dealer and they offered you a vehicle that was 24 years old and had 500,000+ miles on the clock with the same engine... Would you buy it ??

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2026 ==

No compressors on the driving cars on 222s, yes.


People forget, or perhaps it wasn't as noticeable as the linespeed was only 110mph instead of today's 125mph, but there was a period late-MML/early EMT when it was very common for Meridians to have an engine or two not working.
The usual thing was for the remaining engines (with all the extra work to do) to overheat and derate, eventually shutting down.
Yes they do use more fuel, even more now with higher linespeed (although there is a faster speed through Market Harborough and Wellingborough to climb back upto the linespeed from afterwards).
The only 'fuel gauge' in the cab is a warning that the level has dropped below 25%.

Just to remind the Permitted Speed (PS) on the WCML is at best 110mph. Only class 390 being tilt can run at Enhanced Permitted Speed (EPS) up to 125mph.

Certainly going to be very interesting to see how these class 222 units are maximum 110mph perform on Shap and Beattock with a couple of Engines "Conked Out"

The climbs are quite formidable such that prior to 1974 and wires over the border the single Electric Loco would come off at Crewe to be replaced with Double Headed class 50s for the run onto Glasgow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2026 ==

 

[D365]

But ask yourself this: If you went to a 2nd hand car dealer and they offered you a vehicle that was 24 years old and had 500,000+ miles on the clock with the same engine... Would you buy it ??

What is a typical overhaul interval for Cummins QSK19 engines on UK rail vehicles?

 

[Railperf]

A class 50 loco with 6 mark 3 coaches would have a gross power to weight ratio of 8.6 hp/ton compared to 8hp/ton for a 6 car Class 222 on only four engines. Older Class 50 consists were much longer than that with an very poor power to weight ratio in comparison.
i suspect Lumo won't want their 222's running on leas than five engines. Hopefully Lumo's maintenance setup will ensure that is the case.

Getting back to EMR, while a four engines 222 will keep time. having a policy of allowing sets to run on four engines risks a set losing a further engine - where reliability starts to become an issue.
Not being party to how 810's are impacting resources, the reality is it is not good enough at the moment especially as the 810's are struggling to fill their allocated diagrams in full.
What scope does EMR have to outsource additional maintenance in view of Hitachi's struggles?

Bit of a daft thing to say.

Well it was tongue in cheek

 

[43096]

I am just wondering how old the HST fleet was when it was re-engined.

The bulk of the fleet was re-engined in 2006-9, so about the 30 years old point. Obviously engines are on a maintenance regime so it's not like they ran 30 years without overhaul - the Valentas had a half-life overhaul roughly every 18 months, with a full strip-down and rebuild every three years. VP185 are roughly double that interval.

24 year old electronics might very well go on for another 24 years ..

HST power cars had various degrees of re-wiring and electrical upgrades around the 2004-8 period, i.e. around 25-30 years old.

But ask yourself this: If you went to a 2nd hand car dealer and they offered you a vehicle that was 24 years old and had 500,000+ miles on the clock with the same engine... Would you buy it ??

What a pointless comparison. Different engines are designed for different duty cycles - those on a train are obviously designed for a much harsher, more intensive duty.

Just to remind the Permitted Speed (PS) on the WCML is at best 110mph. Only class 390 being tilt can run at Enhanced Permitted Speed (EPS) up to 125mph.

There is work going on, AIUI, to give some "HST 125" limits on the West Coast - LSL have advertised a railtour as part of the testing regime!

The climbs are quite formidable such that prior to 1974 and wires over the border the single Electric Loco would come off at Crewe to be replaced with Double Headed class 50s for the run onto Glasgow.

That was more to do with performance and reliability (Class 50s weren't known as 50-50 for nothing) than an inability to climb the hills.

 

[Bow Fell]

Unfortunately, EMR and especially EMR Control are about to find out the hard way the perils of such maintenance contracts and the Train Availability and Reliability Agreement (TARA).

As long as there is no contravention of the company DOTE (Defective On Train Equipment) there is nothing wrong with units running around with engines out except from a performance perspective.

I’m sure there might be clauses in that a unit should not run around with x amount of engines out for more than x days.

EMR control also I imagine, can refuse to accept units in a degraded state from Hitachi, the problem is this would obviously cause cancellations. So from a control perspective and personal experience as a controller that’s a no-no apart from the obvious performance risk.

The problem is now there’s no incentive for Hitachi to repair them, they aren’t being hit with penalties as their unit availability looks good as both parties know there’s no way EMR control aren’t going to say all these units are stopped without adversely affecting the train service. And Hitachi will also turn around and say well we would have fixed that unit is if it was allowed to be stopped, and that’s where the arguments and perils of such maintenance contracts appear.

Like I said, from personal experience and with the future of the 810’s and run-down of the 222’s, EMR control have to ask what are we running here? A train service or a contract? Sadly, it really is a bit of both.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Unfortunately, EMR and especially EMR Control are about to find out the hard way the perils of such maintenance contracts and the Train Availability and Reliability Agreement (TARA).

As long as there is no contravention of the company DOTE (Defective On Train Equipment) there is nothing wrong with units running around with engines out except from a performance perspective.

I’m sure there might be clauses in that a unit should not run around with x amount of engines out for more than x days.

EMR control also I imagine, can refuse to accept units in a degraded state from Hitachi, the problem is this would obviously cause cancellations. So from a control perspective and personal experience as a controller that’s a no-no apart from the obvious performance risk.

The problem is now there’s no incentive for Hitachi to repair them, they aren’t being hit with penalties as their unit availability looks good as both parties know there’s no way EMR control aren’t going to say all these units are stopped without adversely affecting the train service. And Hitachi will also turn around and say well we would have fixed that unit is if it was allowed to be stopped, and that’s where the arguments and perils of such maintenance contracts appear.

Like I said, from personal experience and with the future of the 810’s and run-down of the 222’s, EMR control have to ask what are we running here? A train service or a contract? Sadly, it really is a bit of both.

Interesting.
So I am guessing Hitachi at Etches Park will be contracted to provide X 810s a day, presumably with concessions to the operator for defects going into service. This might not appear to be different to the Agility contracts for the 800s which guaranteed the number of trains in service !!

 

[Russel]

Unfortunately, EMR and especially EMR Control are about to find out the hard way the perils of such maintenance contracts and the Train Availability and Reliability Agreement (TARA).

As long as there is no contravention of the company DOTE (Defective On Train Equipment) there is nothing wrong with units running around with engines out except from a performance perspective.

I’m sure there might be clauses in that a unit should not run around with x amount of engines out for more than x days.

EMR control also I imagine, can refuse to accept units in a degraded state from Hitachi, the problem is this would obviously cause cancellations. So from a control perspective and personal experience as a controller that’s a no-no apart from the obvious performance risk.

The problem is now there’s no incentive for Hitachi to repair them, they aren’t being hit with penalties as their unit availability looks good as both parties know there’s no way EMR control aren’t going to say all these units are stopped without adversely affecting the train service. And Hitachi will also turn around and say well we would have fixed that unit is if it was allowed to be stopped, and that’s where the arguments and perils of such maintenance contracts appear.

Like I said, from personal experience and with the future of the 810’s and run-down of the 222’s, EMR control have to ask what are we running here? A train service or a contract? Sadly, it really is a bit of both.

So, are we going to see another GWR IET scenario then?

Do we ever learn?

 

[Bow Fell]

Obviously I’m not aware of all nuances, nor do I want to be (that’s for the legal and compliance experts). As a control manager and controller, my job is to run a train service and a service for the public, not run a contract, but you have to see it from both sides unfortunately.

Interesting.
So I am guessing Hitachi at Etches Park will be contracted to provide X 810s a day, presumably with concessions to the operator for defects going into service. This might not appear to be different to the Agility contracts for the 800s which guaranteed the number of trains in service !!

Probably not at the start but eventually Hitachi / EMR will have an agreed availability figure for the 810’s (and 222’s) since this thread is specifically about the 222’s. There will be planned stopped units (exam, planned maintenance) which fall outside of any penalty, but any further units stopped incur a penalty.

As I said, EMR don’t want cancellations and Hitachi don’t want over and above stopped units that incur a penalty, so that’s the stalemate at times. But sometimes, it will be the case EMR will have to say this unit has ran around with 2 engines out for example for over a week, we’re no longer accepting this unit for service until it’s stopped and a full repair carried out which forces the hand of Hitachi.

There are other scenarios and this happens with TOC’s when the maintenance is in house too but service disruption is important to mention which is out of control of the maintainer and TOC.

For example, let’s say 222021 was due for exam and engine repairs at Etches Park, however there’s major disruption end of service and the unit ends at Cricklewood instead, the unit hasn’t got enough mileage to complete the diagram the next day and there are cancellations. Hitachi argue that if the unit had been presented to them on time, they’d have completed the engine repairs and exam, the blame lies with EMR as to why the unit is unavailable. Obviously, this is an extreme example and there are of course allowances for such occasions. But it would be unfair of me to say, the blame always lies squarely with the maintainer.

But, such things have to be considered, as a controller, you’re just looking to get the service put back together as quickly as possible, but you always have to have an eye on the maintenance too and that might mean an extra one or two full cancellations, to get the unit on its correct diagram again so it ends at the depot for exam / maintenance. It’s poor service recovery to have an incident that ended on day 1 roll into day 2, these things do happen, I’ve seen it first hand.

 

[Railperf]

Obviously I’m not aware of all nuances, nor do I want to be (that’s for the legal and compliance experts). As a control manager and controller, my job is to run a train service and a service for the public, not run a contract, but you have to see it from both sides unfortunately.



Probably not at the start but eventually Hitachi / EMR will have an agreed availability figure for the 810’s (and 222’s) since this thread is specifically about the 222’s. There will be planned stopped units (exam, planned maintenance) which fall outside of any penalty, but any further units stopped incur a penalty.

As I said, EMR don’t want cancellations and Hitachi don’t want over and above stopped units that incur a penalty, so that’s the stalemate at times. But sometimes, it will be the case EMR will have to say this unit has ran around with 2 engines out for example for over a week, we’re no longer accepting this unit for service until it’s stopped and a full repair carried out which forces the hand of Hitachi.

There are other scenarios and this happens with TOC’s when the maintenance is in house too but service disruption is important to mention which is out of control of the maintainer and TOC.

For example, let’s say 222021 was due for exam and engine repairs at Etches Park, however there’s major disruption end of service and the unit ends at Cricklewood instead, the unit hasn’t got enough mileage to complete the diagram the next day and there are cancellations. Hitachi argue that if the unit had been presented to them on time, they’d have completed the engine repairs and exam, the blame lies with EMR as to why the unit is unavailable. Obviously, this is an extreme example and there are of course allowances for such occasions. But it would be unfair of me to say, the blame always lies squarely with the maintainer.

But, such things have to be considered, as a controller, you’re just looking to get the service put back together as quickly as possible, but you always have to have an eye on the maintenance too and that might mean an extra one or two full cancellations, to get the unit on its correct diagram again so it ends at the depot for exam / maintenance. It’s poor service recovery to have an incident that ended on day 1 roll into day 2, these things do happen, I’ve seen it first hand.

I can't believe that 3/4 of the fleet is running round with serious engine faults? Could it be that there are quite a few units that have engines that are out of hours and isolated until the set is programmed to go in for a major service/ exam? But surely, following the Sharnbrook incident , it must be a priority to get the units that are only on three engines back to four minimum? How many units can receive engine attention overnight at Etches Park?

 

[liamf656]

I can't believe that 3/4 of the fleet is running round with serious engine faults? Could it be that there are quite a few units that have engines that are out of hours and isolated until the set is programmed to go in for a major service/ exam? But surely, following the Sharnbrook incident , it must be a priority to get the units that are only on three engines back to four minimum? How many units can receive engine attention overnight at Etches Park?

The incident at Sharnbrook wasn't to do with isolated/faulty engines

I believe every unit will leave the depot on at least 4 engines

 

[Amos390]

Talking about failed 222s, 222003 has been sat at Crewe for the last hour on its way to Widnes, is there an issue with it or is it just deciding to have a rest?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Talking about failed 222s, 222003 has been sat at Crewe for the last hour on its way to Widnes, is there an issue with it or is it just deciding to have a rest?

It's recently left Crewe.

 

[Amos390]

It's recently left Crewe.

Yeah, driver seemed to have gone for a wander, just a bit worrying seeing a 222 sat for 1 1/2 hours not moving knowing the current record of them