Emergency Window Hammers

[heart-of-wessex]

Hello all, a bit of a lenghty post coming up...

...now this post may seem a bit random on its topic, but comes about after a discussion on how safe are the MK3s...who actually reads the safety cards and would all the contents be put into practice? maybe someone sitting next to someone would chuck him/her at the window to break it..and then the emergency hammers came into the question.

Just how do they work and are they really safe enough...I can't say I've known for them to be used yet. On the southall accident there seemed to be alot of doors open IIRC and we started to wonder if the hammers were used...in fact were there actually any hammers on in those days?

Secondly, if a window can withstand a passing train and 250mph, can a small hammer break it? double glazing is pretty tough, and if the MK3 or modern unit even was on its side, surely breaking the glass would shatter on you, as of course the side window (now above when tipped over) is basically the only exit, opening the door I'd imagine is no use as opening a heavy door upwards is bound to be awkard?

So I suppose to round off the question, is the emergency hammer hard to use, and how long has it been on the FGW network for?


Cheers,

James.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The hammer will smash the window, as in comparison it is a very large force placed on a very small point. When someone wears high heels they will sink into mud, yet flat trainers won't.

No the emergency hammer is not hard to use. Let's face it, it isn't rocket science

 

[Wyvern]

Secondly, if a window can withstand a passing train and 250mph, can a small hammer break it? double glazing is pretty tough, and if the MK3 or modern unit even was on its side, surely breaking the glass would shatter on you,

Yes I remember the hammers being tested when the double glazing and the MkIIIs were being designed.

As normal with double glazing you have to hit t in the corner (the same goes for double glazing in your home)

The glass does shatter but is toughened so the bits aren't particularly sharp,

 

[jon0844]

Next time you're on a train, why not try the hammer and find out.

NO DON'T!!

I think the glass is designed to have weak points, which in addition to the small point of impact should make it break quite easily. I am sure you can find a video on YouTube if you look hard enough!

 

[No Fault Found]

FGW have done a mod to remove all break glass windows following the Grayrigg derailment. It was deemed that they did more harm as people were falling out through the windows if a train went over.

 

[Wyvern]

I think the glass is designed to have weak points, which in addition to the small point of impact should make it break quite easily. I am sure you can find a video on YouTube if you look hard enough!

See my post above.

Meanwhile why not read the safety notices?

 

[Geezertronic]

FGW have done a mod to remove all break glass windows following the Grayrigg derailment. It was deemed that they did more harm as people were falling out through the windows if a train went over.

Why would FGW do modifications following Grayrigg since the train involved was a Pendolino operated by VirginTrains? What trains did FGW modify?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Because it was deemed that it was safer for passengers to stay within the train, as a result of Grayrigg.

 

[No Fault Found]

Why would FGW do modifications following Grayrigg since the train involved was a Pendolino operated by VirginTrains? What trains did FGW modify?

All of the Mk 3 coaches. As Ralph said, the break glass windows were breaking if the coach went over and bodies fell out and got crushed. It was noted that a big factor in the few fatalities in the Grayrigg accident was the fact that there were no breakable windows and people stayed in the vehicle.

 

[CarterUSM]

ScR withdrew all of the emergency hammers from their multiple units over a year ago due to the reasons already stated.

 

[Wyvern]

How is removing the hammers going to stop the glass breaking n an incident?

 

[mumrar]

It was noted that a big factor in the few fatalities in the Grayrigg accident was the fact that there were no breakable windows and people stayed in the vehicle.

The few fatalities? In the case of Grayrigg, we'd normally refer to the number of fatalities as 'one'. A few implies there were far more.

 

[jon0844]

It's not the removal of the hammers, but the replacement of the glass! Only a few windows per carriage are designed to be easily broken with a hammer, so these are being replaced for toughened glass that won't break or fall out (in theory).

If you simply removed the hammers, you've achieved absolutely nothing! I hope that isn't the case!!

 

[90019]

ScR withdrew all of the emergency hammers from their multiple units over a year ago due to the reasons already stated.

I'm sure I heard someone say that they'd also been removed because people kept stealing them.

 

[CarterUSM]

No, it was definately due to the change in emergency evacuation procedure, there was an inexhaustible supply of these hammers. Or there must have been anyway! I believe the windows were being replaced also though I can't say I seen any evidence of this and of what schedule it all took place.

 

[bluebottle]

It was noted that a big factor in the few fatalities in the Grayrigg accident was the fact that there were no breakable windows and people stayed in the vehicle.

The few fatalities? In the case of Grayrigg, we'd normally refer to the number of fatalities as 'one'. A few implies there were far more.

It makes more sense to say "the low fatality rate" which I think is what was meant. More might have died had the windows been broken in the incident.

 

[Helvellyn]

SWT have also removed the hammers from the units. Largely as a result of what happened at Grayrigg. But also because they were collected by some of the less desirable passengers on our trains. Some of the really nice ones even decided to try and smash everything that was glass on a unit a couple of years back.

 

[mumrar]

It makes more sense to say "the low fatality rate" which I think is what was meant. More might have died had the windows been broken in the incident.

That doesn't make any sense, to judge the number of fatalities in one incident is not a rate. To judge all fatalities over the last 20 years could be defined as a rate of so many fatalities per incident. The only way you can quantify a single fatality is one, not a couple, not a handful, not a few. It's a nonsense.

 

[starrymarkb]

Why would FGW do modifications following Grayrigg since the train involved was a Pendolino operated by VirginTrains? What trains did FGW modify?

It was Upton Nevet that motivated FGW a few of the fatalities were from being ejected and dragged along. New stock was fitted with laminated (unbreakable) windows but with so many breakable, following Grayrigg it was ruled that Laminated should be fitted to all windows. FGW then went and replaced all the windows in their stock on refubishment

 

[royaloak]

There was a case a few years ago where a fuel tank fell off a HST and the only injury was a bloke that smashed the window and jumped in front of another HST. In 99.9% of incidents the safest place is on the train, even if you need to move to a different carriage.

The decision to remove the hammers, and breakable windows, has been taken after collating details from ALL incidents going back many years.

 

[No Fault Found]

That doesn't make any sense, to judge the number of fatalities in one incident is not a rate. To judge all fatalities over the last 20 years could be defined as a rate of so many fatalities per incident. The only way you can quantify a single fatality is one, not a couple, not a handful, not a few. It's a nonsense.

Get over it.

I badly worded my post, not a problem. Most people got the gist of what i was getting at.

 

[mumrar]

Calm down dear, I only pointed it out as clearly the Grayrigg derailment had a big impact on future railway safety with just one fatality. The incident wouldn't have been considered such a lucky escape if a few people died, especially as the unfortunate passeneger that did die was elderly and not able to easily deal with the injury trauma as a lot of other injured passengers could.

 

[TTI]

The change re:window hammers is more to do with the fatalities that occurred at Ufton Nervet (rather than Grayrigg), as a result the RSSB commissioned a report into evacuation via doors or windows smashed open by hammers:
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...qICcDw&usg=AFQjCNFPgqMRnfpuzajHQlkyrw0rz1CdNA

Arriva Train Wales are already removing hammers on 175 units when their windows are changed over to the new type.