Emergency Procedures on Trains..

[bluenoxid]

What do you do here? Serious question.

You're in an almost empty carriage, a couple of people are sitting. One of them just sits up, proclaims himself to be the "son of God" and pulls out the biggest bloody knife you ever saw and starts knifing people left, right and center. You're next. How do you handle it?

Would you go ask the ticket inspector for help? Is there any sort of emergency stop on trains.

Serious question. Thanks.

I would go to one of the UK's largest railway forums and ask what to do?

 

[bAzTNM]

All I was basically asking was what would the emergency procedures be in a situation like that? What would happen?

Wasn't my fault that the thread decended into Chuck Norris and Charles Bronson fantasies. I apologise.

 

[scotsman]

Can I just say that I am very, very scared by this thread. More by the OP than by the content

 

[jon0844]

All I was basically asking was what would the emergency procedures be in a situation like that?

When you get on a train next, listen to the pre-departure announcement from the driver or guard, you should find that this explains the correct procedure for a knife wielding maniac.

If not, it should be on one of the passenger safety notices situation throughout the train. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with the content.

Actually, maybe you should write to ATOC and ask that the procedure for dealing with this situation is written on the back of all tickets. Given how often this situation arises on public transport, I'm sure you would get a very positive response.

 

[WestCoast]

All I was basically asking was what would the emergency procedures be in a situation like that? What would happen?

I really don't think there are any set procedures for a crazy guy wielding a knife in people's faces.

On aircraft, however, the crew are taught basic self-defense as part of their training, for use in these circumstances. They also have handcuffs and the use of seatbelts to tie a passenger down to their seat.

This is something which guards, ticket examiners and drivers (perhaps unfortunately) don't have on the railways.

 

[jon0844]

Eurostar excepted?

(BTW why has the thread title been changed? Is this now a serious thread?!)

 

[TheManWho]

Sadly something similar did actually happen on DLR last year sometime when a passenger armed with a knife operated one of the emegency door release pulls, thus bringing the train to a stop between stations.

Here's a link to the story
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-tasered-police-storm-knife-siege-train.html

 

[WestCoast]

Eurostar excepted?

I really don't know if Eurostar give their train managers self defense training. It's still a train and not an aircraft, it just goes in a tunnel (albeit a long one under the sea bed). You can't just escape from an aircraft at 30,000 feet, you've got to deal with the problem onboard - there's nowhere to hide!

(BTW why has the thread title been changed? Is this now a serious thread?!)

The questioned was light-hearted but I thought it was (kind of) semi-serious.

 

[jon0844]

Like my seat base shield, which only applies to certain types of seat, I guess the rolling stock matters here. Some trains will stop dead, others will alert the driver who will proceed to the next station in most cases, then keep the doors locked.

Only the emergency door release would halt the train, and allow people to escape (or indeed the offender if they wanted to escape) but in the story above it says about holding hostages, where as this person in this 'example' seemed to just want to kill everyone because he was mad. I am not sure you can reason with someone who is mad.

I really don't know if Eurostar give their train managers self defense training. It's still a train and not an aircraft, it just goes in a tunnel (albeit a long one under the sea bed). You can't just escape from an aircraft at 30,000 feet, you've got to deal with the problem onboard - there's nowhere to hide!

When I first went on a Eurostar back in 1994 or whenever it started, they had a room where they could hold people - and cuff them to the seat (or railings or something, my memory fails a bit on the specifics). So, that's why I wonder if they are in fact given the same level of training - or if it was only for when you had passport checks onboard and perhaps these people had the training? I am not even sure if these rooms still exist on the refreshed trains?

 

[Flamingo]

There are certain nightmare scenarios that do cross every guards mind - that is probably one of them. I'm not sure what I would do, but it would probably involve using ANY means at my disposal to ensure the person with the knife was no longer a threat to me or anybody else, and any actions that would enable as many people as possible to get out of their reach.

If this involved any acts that would later require explaining in a court, I'd rather be a live defendant than a dead victim.

In that kind of scenario, big boys rules would apply and "Putting Customers First" and being non-confrontational and touchy-feely goes out the window.

 

[jon0844]

So the first thing wouldn't be to say 'tickets please?' in the hope that he goes

'Oh sorry, here hold this for a second, my ticket is in my wallet'

 

[strange6]

What do you do here? Serious question.

You're in an almost empty carriage, a couple of people are sitting. One of them just sits up, proclaims himself to be the "son of God" and pulls out the biggest bloody knife you ever saw and starts knifing people left, right and center. You're next. How do you handle it?

Would you go ask the ticket inspector for help? Is there any sort of emergency stop on trains.

Serious question. Thanks.

I think the procedure would be to use whatever means are at your disposal to unharm the man (killing him if necessary) and bring the situation under control.

 

[driver9000]

This happened on a Virgin Voyager several years ago at Oxenholme. The attacker was locked in the saloon of one of the coaches by the crew who were able to lock the sliding doors closed, although he then smashed a window using the hammers provided and escaped (he was later caught and sent to prison). Sadly his victim died.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5023422.stm

 

[WestCoast]

When I first went on a Eurostar back in 1994 or whenever it started, they had a room where they could hold people - and cuff them to the seat (or railings or something, my memory fails a bit on the specifics). So, that's why I wonder if they are in fact given the same level of training - or if it was only for when you had passport checks onboard and perhaps these people had the training? I am not even sure if these rooms still exist on the refreshed trains?

Yes, I heard about the class 373s having this "detention room". Well, they used to check tickets on the eurostar but I don't remember the days of onboard passport checks (I first used the chunnel around 2003). The border control "prison" room would make sense.

I wonder if the North of London sets had this room, and if the GNER guards were ever tempted to use it on a "White Rose" service!!

This happened on a Virgin Voyager several years ago at Oxenholme. The attacker was locked in the saloon of one of the coaches by the crew who were able to lock the sliding doors closed, although he then smashed a window using the hammers provided and escaped (he was later caught and sent to prison. Sadly his victim died.

I remember this incident, it was given a lot of coverage on the TV news. The guard was very competent at judging and dealing with the situation. Sadly, that didn't save the victim.

 

[strange6]

This happened on a Virgin Voyager several years ago at Oxenholme. The attacker was locked in the saloon of one of the coaches by the crew who were able to lock the sliding doors closed, although he then smashed a window using the hammers provided and escaped (he was later caught and sent to prison. Sadly his victim died.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5023422.stm

I remember that very well. Must have been an awful situation for all concerned. The train manager did the right thing at the end of the day as did the driver by stopping. If he had continued, then the criminal would have probably stabbed somebody else in desperation at trying escaping.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I remember that very well. Must have been an awful situation for all concerned. The train manager did the right thing at the end of the day as did the driver by stopping. If he had continued, then the criminal would have probably stabbed somebody else in desperation at trying escaping.

And it's a classic example of by thinking, evacuation and containment is the right course of action rather than imitating Chuck Norris and probably making the whole thing worse.

 

[strange6]

And it's a classic example of by thinking, evacuation and containment is the right course of action rather than imitating Chuck Norris and probably making the whole thing worse.

Absolutely. All credit to the train crew

 

[Flamingo]

Too right, but containment is not possible on all trains.

 

[es373]

What on earth do you mean it is unlikely to happen??!?!?

I see it as very likely bearing in mind that the terror threat level is severe, especially after the killing of Bin Laden there is going to be a huge back lash! No this is not a racial slur...This is just looking at the likely possibilities and events which could happen.... given that the Olympics will have 22nd D Squadron guys walking the streets around the area.
Having done a couple of years stint in the Army I know how the knife wielding fool should be restrained but it doesn't always go the way you want it to - your first point of call would be to use maximum speed + maximum aggression. If you end up severely damaging him then you should be fine (depending on injuries sustained on yourself) as it could be classed as self defence. Again there is a very thin line from GBH to Self Defence.
In this case the BTP would not be called as he is carrying a weapon with intent to injure/kill. There fore I reckon it would be the CO19 boys that would be called and they would operate on a shoot to kill policy.
I know what I would do as I've had a knife held to my throat demanding my wallet before and I acted on instinct - it would be pointless me going into what happened as I dont want to make myself seem like "the big man" when its something I am not, I just know I can handle myself.

I would expect most people to stand up to someone with a knife though because its the ones who dont stand up that usually end up in the morgue!

 

[jon0844]

I think it is unlikely, personally. Now you're possibly right about an increased threat overall, but I doubt it will be from someone with a knife.

I think we've got far more to worry about, like being run over on the way to/from the train station by a drunk driver or something.

 

[LE Greys]

In the first situation, pull the cord, then close the distance as fast as possible, grab the knife arm by the wrist and aim my opposite elbow straight at his lower jaw (something a former prison officer told me once, an elbow in the jaw is very painful). Then I'd have to hope to God that someone else came to my aid, or else I'd probably not survive very long. The main priorities would be to alert someone (hence the cord) then try to do something to protect the other people on the train. If that means risking my worthless neck, then so be it.

 

[Flamingo]

Of course, don't forget the fire extinguisher. A face full of AFFF will confuse / distract / disorientate anybody enough for you to either get away, or get close enough to hit them with the extinguisher itself! (Very hard and repeatedly)

 

[LE Greys]

Of course, don't forget the fire extinguisher. A face full of AFFF will confuse / distract / disorientate anybody enough for you to either get away, or get close enough to hit them with the extinguisher itself! (Very hard and repeatedly)

Nice one, I'd just have to hope that someone remembered it.

 

[Flamingo]

Nice one, I'd just have to hope that someone remembered it.

Adapt, improvise, overcome!

 

[Striker]

Of course, don't forget the fire extinguisher. A face full of AFFF will confuse / distract / disorientate anybody enough for you to either get away, or get close enough to hit them with the extinguisher itself! (Very hard and repeatedly)

Asking him to explain the various type of tickets available to purchase and their rules and restrictions would confuse/distract/disorientate him.

 

[michael769]

There was a report in the local papers a few weeks back of a stabbing on a train. In that report it seems the passengers left the carriage where the fight (which seems to have been the result of an unprovoked attack by a member of a small group of football fans upon the member of a group of fans from another team) broke out and the guard locked the door between the two carriages, until the police arrived at the next station, the the offenders were arrested.

Presumably said offenders failed to realise that there was an emergency door release in the time it took the police to reach the station.

As to the odds of being attacked on a train, by someone you don't know - my guess is that the staff are many times more likely to be victims than any passenger.