Emergency engineering at Clandon 21 Dec onwards

[Peter Wilde]

Am committed to travelling to London tomorrow. Checked trains a day or two ago and all seemed OK. But journey planners are reporting all trains on my line cancelled. Now stating "Due to emergency engineering work in the Clandon area, limited train services will operate between London Waterloo and Effingham Junction, via Cobham & Stoke D’Abernon and via Epsom.” No service apparently from stations between Effingham Jct and Guildford.

Anybody know what’s going on?

And why no rail replacement buses? (Though I suspect the answer will be on the lines of ‘no buses/drivers are available for hire as they are all too busy as it’s Christmas’).

 

[TEW]

SWR are advising that there will be replacement buses on their website.

There is an embankment that is slipping and needs urgent remedial work.

 

[Gloster]

Ground movement of an embankment between Clandon and London Road. Somewhere on Network Rail Wessex there is more information.

 

[Deepgreen]

For the last few days on the BBC News Surrey page there has been a story on this, but it has gone now (why, I don't know!). No trains from 21-27 December owing to embankment slippage rectification works. EDIT - found it, in their 'archive': https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx275978188o

The story talks of emergency works and says that replacement buses will be provided - quote from story here :

A rail line in Surrey will be closed so emergency work to stabilise an embankment can take place.
Network Rail said the line between Guildford and Effingham Junction would close on 21 December and would not reopen until 27 December for passenger trains.
A spokesperson said remote sensors at the embankment had recently detected ground movement and that while a limited number of trains could run at a reduced speed, repairs needed to be undertaken for trains to safely travel at normal speed.
During the closure, to stabilise and strengthen the embankment, 50 sheet piles - 8m (26.2ft) long sheets of metal - and a 30m (98.4ft) section of soil nails (steel rods), helping to underpin the railway will be installed.

 

[Gloster]

For the last few days on the BBC News Surrey page there has been a story on this, but it has gone now (why, I don't know!). No trains from 21-27 December owing to embankment slippage rectification works.

It is still there in the ‘latest updates’ at the bottom.

 

[bengley]

Am committed to travelling to London tomorrow. Checked trains a day or two ago and all seemed OK. But journey planners are reporting all trains on my line cancelled. Now stating "Due to emergency engineering work in the Clandon area, limited train services will operate between London Waterloo and Effingham Junction, via Cobham & Stoke D’Abernon and via Epsom.” No service apparently from stations between Effingham Jct and Guildford.

Anybody know what’s going on?

And why no rail replacement buses? (Though I suspect the answer will be on the lines of ‘no buses/drivers are available for hire as they are all too busy as it’s Christmas’).

There are definitely buses. I'm driving one tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Peter Wilde]

There are definitely buses. I'm driving one tomorrow afternoon.

Thanks. No buses from Horsley shown on SWR journey planners - yet; they seem to keep updating it, and a bunch of cancellations of trains starting from Effingham Junction have just shown up as well.

If BBC Surrey have had this story for days, wonder why all this unhelpful last-minute change in passenger info now? (Had assumed a broken rail just detected, signal cable stolen, or something like that, which would at least have justified the lack of solid info today).

 

[Ian Hardy]

Here is the Network Rail news item published 18/12/2024:
https://www.networkrailmediacentre....line-between-guildford-and-effingham-junction

 

[Lifelong]

Is there a reason why the trains are not running to Clandon, given that they terminate there when there’s engineering works at Guildford, and this work is after Clandon (as you travel towards Guildford)? Far better bus wise…

 

[TEW]

Terminating at Clandon requires a member of staff to operate the points at Clandon, may not have been possible supply staff given the short notice.

 

[Gloster]

It depend exactly where the slip is and which line it is on, which affects whether you have got safe clearances into and back out of Clandon. However, the crossover is on the Horsley side of Clandon so you would have to either go out over it and then back into the Up platform before starting back from it or start back from the Down platform, which would require a couple of handsignalmen. The latter way of working seems to be a lost art with Network Rail, who just go for the simple and passenger unfriendly choice of RRBs.

 

[arb]

Well, the railway has lost my money today because of their inability to provide accurate information in good time.

I'm travelling to Horsley today. When I double-checked the journey planners yesterday afternoon, all I could see was all the trains on this route diverted to use the mainline between Guildford and London, with no alternatives offered. I couldn't find anything about why on either the National Rail Enquiries or South Western Railway website, or their Twitter feeds. So I made other arrangements.

Even if the journey planners had been partially updated to show the trains as far as Effingham Junction but not the replacement bus, I'd have still used the train, and planned to walk the last mile or so. But they couldn't even get the info about the trains they're running correct!

If (as according to this thread) the information has been available on the Network Rail and BBC News websites for several days, then this isn't a problem that occurred yesterday afternoon at just the same time that I happened to be checking the journey planners. Even now, on Saturday morning, there is nothing about this in the "current disruptions" section of either the National Rail Enquiries or South Western Railway websites. So the real question for me is why aren't they able to show the information in good time? Do I now have to add Network Rail and BBC News to the list of websites I need to check when planning a journey?!

 

[TEW]

It depend exactly where the slip is and which line it is on, which affects whether you have got safe clearances into and back out of Clandon. However, the crossover is on the Horsley side of Clandon so you would have to either go out over it and then back into the Up platform before starting back from it or start back from the Down platform, which would require a couple of handsignalmen. The latter way of working seems to be a lost art with Network Rail, who just go for the simple and passenger unfriendly choice of RRBs.

Starting up trains from the down platform at Clandon is regularly done during engineering work, usually a few times a year at least.

 

[LAX54]

It depend exactly where the slip is and which line it is on, which affects whether you have got safe clearances into and back out of Clandon. However, the crossover is on the Horsley side of Clandon so you would have to either go out over it and then back into the Up platform before starting back from it or start back from the Down platform, which would require a couple of handsignalmen. The latter way of working seems to be a lost art with Network Rail, who just go for the simple and passenger unfriendly choice of RRBs.

I always found it was the TOC that dictated where their trains would run to and from, even when we had enough staff available to enable trains to run closer to an incident.

 

[Peter Wilde]

Well, the railway has lost my money today because of their inability to provide accurate information in good time.

I'm travelling to Horsley today. When I double-checked the journey planners yesterday afternoon, all I could see was all the trains on this route diverted to use the mainline between Guildford and London, with no alternatives offered. I couldn't find anything about why on either the National Rail Enquiries or South Western Railway website, or their Twitter feeds. So I made other arrangements.

Even if the journey planners had been partially updated to show the trains as far as Effingham Junction but not the replacement bus, I'd have still used the train, and planned to walk the last mile or so. But they couldn't even get the info about the trains they're running correct!

If (as according to this thread) the information has been available on the Network Rail and BBC News websites for several days, then this isn't a problem that occurred yesterday afternoon at just the same time that I happened to be checking the journey planners. Even now, on Saturday morning, there is nothing about this in the "current disruptions" section of either the National Rail Enquiries or South Western Railway websites. So the real question for me is why aren't they able to show the information in good time? Do I now have to add Network Rail and BBC News to the list of websites I need to check when planning a journey?!

Totally agree! This is an absolute, inexcusable shambles.

Trying to research my journey again this morning. The information provided online seems to change minute by minute. A whole lot of cancellations showing up on the page about the replacement services from Effingham Jct to Waterloo, but with - when I first looked - a few trains this afternoon shown as still running. But navigate away from this page, and re-check a few minutes later, and even more are cancelled. Now including the one just mentioned that I was proposing to take.

Checking against my actual normal journey from Horsley, and all one gets is that all trains are cancelled. Nothing whatsoever about the promised replacement bus service connection.

What the hell is going on?

 

[Deepgreen]

The information, if not the actual service, does seem to have been thoroughly mis-managed. As others have said, the railway these days far too easily gives up operating trains when things like this happen, and switches to buses (if available) at the drop of a hat. Perhaps the proximity to Christmas has meant that rail staff resources are threadbare, but so are buses I imagine. Looking at RTT, no trains are shown running at Horsley today or tomorrow, but then they appear again on Monday and Tuesday (and the 27th), but as STP workings (not as buses)! As RTT takes its data from NR, this calls into question the background information and ties in with users' confusion about what is running.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Dec 2024 ==

I always found it was the TOC that dictated where their trains would run to and from, even when we had enough staff available to enable trains to run closer to an incident.

NR maintain the infrastructure, signalling and permanent way, so they dictate what can run and where. The TOC may decide what it feels can best be provided under those constraints.

 

[TEW]

The problem on the SWR side is that the closure was announced after the train plan had been done and the train crew diagrams had been issued. This is already a very busy time of year for train planning with the amount of alterations over Christmas and New Year.
Since a lot of 2Gxx and 2Dxx services do not run out and back from Guildford with the same crew it isn't as simple as just turning them round at Effingham Junction instead. SWR have daily cancellations due to train crew shortages so there aren't loads of spare crew available to work them instead.
Tbh a better service may have been offered if they had simply attempted to source buses all the way from Guildford to Surbiton and Leatherhead.

 

[Gloster]

The problem on the SWR side is that the closure was announced after the train plan had been done and the train crew diagrams had been issued. This is already a very busy time of year for train planning with the amount of alterations over Christmas and New Year.
Since a lot of 2Gxx and 2Dxx services do not run out and back from Guildford with the same crew it isn't as simple as just turning them round at Effingham Junction instead. SWR have daily cancellations due to train crew shortages so there aren't loads of spare crew available to work them instead.
Tbh a better service may have been offered if they had simply attempted to source buses all the way from Guildford to Surbiton and Leatherhead.

Not for the passengers.

 

[Deepgreen]

Not for the passengers.

Who...?

 

[TEW]

Not for the passengers.

Have you seen the service on offer today? If a decent number of buses had been able to have been sourced it would 100% have been a better service.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I always found it was the TOC that dictated where their trains would run to and from, even when we had enough staff available to enable trains to run closer to an incident.

It depends. I'm not familiar with the area, but if a ground frame requires a ground frame operator and Network Rail haven't got one (typically a MOM will cover it), then the trains can't run there no matter how much dictating the TOC does

 

[Gloster]

I was brought up in that area and, unless there has been an enormous amount of new roads, there are good reasons for keeping the RRB as short as possible. The railway cuts across the road network, so you would either be using some quite narrow roads or you will be going from a station up to the main road, going along it for a mile or two and then diving down another secondary road.

 

[181]

If (as according to this thread) the information has been available on the Network Rail and BBC News websites for several days, then this isn't a problem that occurred yesterday afternoon at just the same time that I happened to be checking the journey planners. Even now, on Saturday morning, there is nothing about this in the "current disruptions" section of either the National Rail Enquiries or South Western Railway websites. So the real question for me is why aren't they able to show the information in good time? Do I now have to add Network Rail and BBC News to the list of websites I need to check when planning a journey?!

An item about the disruption appeared on the NRE and SWR sites around the middle of the day, but: a) that's far too late (surely it should only have taken a few minutes to add some text as soon as the issue became apparent); b) the headline ('Alterations to services between Effingham Junction and Guildford') doesn't make it obvious that passengers at (say) Epsom would need to read further, and c) it mentions buses between Effingham Junction and Guildford, and trains being diverted via Woking, but says nothing about what might be happening on the London side of EJ. i) Taken literally this would suggest that neither trains nor buses were available there; or ii) people might assume that it was an error and trains were turning round at EJ (which is what one would expect unless in the know about the information provided in post #17). Looking at RTT, it appears to have been mostly i) for several hours, later moving more towards ii), but you wouldn't know that from the NRE or SWT disruptions pages.

 

[TEW]

It depends. I'm not familiar with the area, but if a ground frame requires a ground frame operator and Network Rail haven't got one (typically a MOM will cover it), then the trains can't run there no matter how much dictating the TOC does

A ground frame operator is required at Clandon. One is provided for planned engineering works, as one in at various other locations on the SWR network. It may not have been possible at short notice though.

 

[Deepgreen]

I was brought up in that area and, unless there has been an enormous amount of new roads, there are good reasons for keeping the RRB as short as possible. The railway cuts across the road network, so you would either be using some quite narrow roads or you will be going from a station up to the main road, going along it for a mile or two and then diving down another secondary road.

Yes - it is still much like that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2024 ==

Very oddly, today, the RTT site is showing a semi-normal day of Guildford to Waterloo trains at Horsley (all STP), but clicking on any individual train reveals only the section from Effingham Junction to Waterloo of each working running! Tomorrow is the same, except that all individual trains are shown as going to Guildford. What a mess - if this is the Network Rail data, no wonder the public information is so dire.

 

[30907]

Very oddly, today, the RTT site is showing a semi-normal day of Guildford to Waterloo trains at Horsley (all STP), but clicking on any individual train reveals only the section from Effingham Junction to Waterloo of each working running! Tomorrow is the same, except that all individual trains are shown as going to Guildford. What a mess - if this is the Network Rail data, no wonder the public information is so dire.

Two hours later, the entries you refer to have been updated.

 

[Deepgreen]

Two hours later, the entries you refer to have been updated.

Not for 24th and 27th they haven't - I have just looked at Horsley on RTT and they are still as I described earlier.

 

[Stephen42]

Not for 24th and 27th they haven't - I have just looked at Horsley on RTT and they are still as I described earlier.

The 27th services might be back to normal, it depends how the works go. The advice is to check ahead of travelling for that day not that there will be no trains.

The changes are being made via the very short term planning (VSTP) process which is limited to the current and following day. Darwin similarly allows updating trains for the same time window without updating the Network Rail data - buses arranged at short notice might not be added to the Network Rail data. The STP process requires the changes to be further in the future than the VSTP window, there would have been very little time to get a plan of services via STP especially as 4 different plans required.

RTT does not use the industry's intended source for public facing information, the National Rail journey planner has an alert for all services at Clandon on the 24th with a link to the incident and that the journey planners will be updated 24 hours in advance. It's not ideal, but these scenarios are relatively infrequent and embarking on a significant overhaul to improve it may just distract from other priorities.

 

[Deepgreen]

The 27th services might be back to normal, it depends how the works go. The advice is to check ahead of travelling for that day not that there will be no trains.

The changes are being made via the very short term planning (VSTP) process which is limited to the current and following day. Darwin similarly allows updating trains for the same time window without updating the Network Rail data - buses arranged at short notice might not be added to the Network Rail data. The STP process requires the changes to be further in the future than the VSTP window, there would have been very little time to get a plan of services via STP especially as 4 different plans required.

RTT does not use the industry's intended source for public facing information, the National Rail journey planner has an alert for all services at Clandon on the 24th with a link to the incident and that the journey planners will be updated 24 hours in advance. It's not ideal, but these scenarios are relatively infrequent and embarking on a significant overhaul to improve it may just distract from other priorities.

Thanks. The weather forecast is for dry weather throughout, so perhaps the works will be unimpeded.

 

[181]

The information on NRE is now significantly improved, although it still describes the train service on the London side of Effingham Junction variously as 'revised', 'limited' or 'extremely limited', which give rather different impressions. RTT and the NRE journey planner indicate that it's much reduced compared to normal, but I haven't investigated in enough detail to say whether 'extremely' is necessary for the statement to be true.