Ember: Electric coach service

[CMBS]

Glasgow is still operated out of a Truckstop at the moment, so charging is handled by bus swaps with E3s and E20s (later this month). Once their hub beside parkfirst at St James interchange is built they will no doubt start heading south. With rumours of a hub/outstation at Ayr. Also rumours of Glasgow to Carlisle and Edinburgh to Newcastle with an agreement in place with Go north east to use their Chargers.

I would take it the Glasgow to Carlisle service would eventually be extended along the Hexham corridor if it were to commence? I think most intercity traffic for Carlisle is between there and Newcastle and the 685 currently offers a slow alternative by stopping everywhere in every village, usually only 2 or 3 people on the 685 actually do the full length from Carlisle to Newcastle as opposed to the train.

 

[scotrail170434]

I would take it the Glasgow to Carlisle service would eventually be extended along the Hexham corridor if it were to commence? I think most intercity traffic for Carlisle is between there and Newcastle and the 685 currently offers a slow alternative by stopping everywhere in every village, usually only 2 or 3 people on the 685 actually do the full length from Carlisle to Newcastle as opposed to the train.

No clue sorry, its just what i have heard from the grapevine. It will be a while away yet anyway. The glasgow hub should be open before Q2 2027. They intend on being finished with expansion in scotland within the next two years then they will be going nationwide and finally european.

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

I would take it the Glasgow to Carlisle service would eventually be extended along the Hexham corridor if it were to commence? I think most intercity traffic for Carlisle is between there and Newcastle and the 685 currently offers a slow alternative by stopping everywhere in every village, usually only 2 or 3 people on the 685 actually do the full length from Carlisle to Newcastle as opposed to the train.

I do the 685 full whack on the odd occasion I think it's a brilliant wee run for the £3 from Newcastle to Carlisle

 

[paravostok]

Yeah that's fair wasn't too sure on their depot locations, so makes sense was genuinely curious.

Must admit the Edinburgh to Newcastle route seems like there's massive potential being from Northumberland, on both sides of the border really. Nothing really comfortable currently unless you're near the train stations. The likes of Alnwick, Tranent, Eyemouth and Haddington, not having any rail at all.

Agreed with the Dumfries side aswell.

If/when an England route happens I do wonder what will happen with NECs, as in, say you have an NEC, how does travelling from Edinburgh to Newcastle work, do you pay it as 2 "chunks", one free and one paid, or what? especially if it stops in Carlisle/Berwick Upon Tweed.

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

If/when an England route happens I do wonder what will happen with NECs, as in, say you have an NEC, how does travelling from Edinburgh to Newcastle work, do you pay it as 2 "chunks", one free and one paid, or what? especially if it stops in Carlisle/Berwick Upon Tweed.

The X74 Peter Hoggs bus from Jedburgh you can use your NEC on that service to Newcastle free of charge there and back

 

[CMBS]

If/when an England route happens I do wonder what will happen with NECs, as in, say you have an NEC, how does travelling from Edinburgh to Newcastle work, do you pay it as 2 "chunks", one free and one paid, or what? especially if it stops in Carlisle/Berwick Upon Tweed.

Cross-border services are valid to Carlisle and Berwick on local services (e.g. 79, 253) but NatEx doesn't appear to accept them (even on the Glasgow-Edinburgh service which users are allowed to hop on and get off) and I don't think Flixbus serves Carlisle or Berwick. Might be to do with the services not being registered.

 

[johncrossley]

Do we know for sure what the rules are for using Scottish funded coaches in England? Maybe Glasgow to Carlisle might be OK, because there is only a small bit across the border, but what about potential routes serving more of England?

 

[Man of Kent]

Do we know for sure what the rules are for using Scottish funded coaches in England? Maybe Glasgow to Carlisle might be OK, because there is only a small bit across the border, but what about potential routes serving more of England?

The English concessionary rules allow any service that requires booking to be excluded. I also understand that the Scottish concessionary rate is more generous than most English equivalents, so it is far from certain that Ember's business model will work south of the border.

 

[Snex]

If/when an England route happens I do wonder what will happen with NECs, as in, say you have an NEC, how does travelling from Edinburgh to Newcastle work, do you pay it as 2 "chunks", one free and one paid, or what? especially if it stops in Carlisle/Berwick Upon Tweed.

Yeah agreed, franchising will be interesting aswell as I believe they register their services so they'll end up becoming liable for permits and if they do too much of the likes of Northumberland might end up not being permitted at all.

There would be a lot of duplication with the likes of the 685 / X15

 

[Volvodart]

Do we know for sure what the rules are for using Scottish funded coaches in England? Maybe Glasgow to Carlisle might be OK, because there is only a small bit across the border, but what about potential routes serving more of England?

The 3 Scotzeb schemes have different rules:-

Scotzeb1 "Buses must be operated on registered local bus services in Scotland for a
minimum of 5 years. A registered local bus service is one which is available to
members of the general public, has scheduled stopping places, a clear, easily
accessible timetable and route map, and has been registered with the Office of
the Traffic Commissioner."

Scotzeb2 "The vehicles acquired through this scheme must be operated in Scotland by a PSV operator
or provide a community transport service under a Section 19 or Section 22 permit for a
minimum of 7 consecutive years."

Scotzeb3 "All vehicles acquired through this scheme must be operated in Scotland by a
licensed PSV operator on registered local bus services for a minimum of seven (7)
consecutive years from entry into service."

 

[overthewater]

The English concessionary rules allow any service that requires booking to be excluded. I also understand that the Scottish concessionary rate is more generous than most English equivalents, so it is far from certain that Ember's business model will work south of the border.

To be fair they always said they wanted to get car drivers, so it shouldn't matter to much overall.

 

[cf111]

I was a good 35 minutes late on the E6 from Inverness to Thurso last night and received an email this morning refunding my £2 as account credit for a future booking. I had no idea this was Ember's policy.

It was one of the bigger coaches on that service - they are very comfy, even when almost fully loaded like last night.

 

[Strathtay 260]

It seems full GTe14 operation on the E6 is the new norm. If you book a ticket in advance it will say 53 seats instead of 38 available at default.

 

[johncrossley]

The 3 Scotzeb schemes have different rules:-

Scotzeb1 "Buses must be operated on registered local bus services in Scotland for a
minimum of 5 years. A registered local bus service is one which is available to
members of the general public, has scheduled stopping places, a clear, easily
accessible timetable and route map, and has been registered with the Office of
the Traffic Commissioner."

Scotzeb2 "The vehicles acquired through this scheme must be operated in Scotland by a PSV operator
or provide a community transport service under a Section 19 or Section 22 permit for a
minimum of 7 consecutive years."

Scotzeb3 "All vehicles acquired through this scheme must be operated in Scotland by a
licensed PSV operator on registered local bus services for a minimum of seven (7)
consecutive years from entry into service."

To me this suggest that cross-border services should be fine as long as they are registered. For example, Glasgow to Carlisle. It probably rules out long distance routes like Glasgow to Manchester.

 

[overthewater]

There nothing stopping them using the original batch of coaches on the routes to Manchester or leeds, 26 should be fine to get them going. It will be 5 years come 2027.

 

[Strathtay 260]

I know it's all calculated due to driver's driving hours etc but they really need to rethink their timings on the E3. Can't remember the last time I was onboard an on time departure from Glasgow...

 

[CMBS]

I know it's all calculated due to driver's driving hours etc but they really need to rethink their timings on the E3. Can't remember the last time I was onboard an on time departure from Glasgow...

All Ember timetables are terrible due to their lack of timing points, 10-15 minute late arrival usually guaranteed. Possibly a marketing method to make the illusion that it creates a quicker service. If I use connections for Ember I usually give 15-30 minutes time, think people were complaining about Scrabster ferry connections due to this when I was on the return E6 to Inverness and missed the last boat. If you compared that to the X99, that has a 5 minute timing point in Dornoch and 2 minutes in Dunbeath. When I used the X99 it arrived on time at Thurso, with the E6 behind it being half an hour late, though worth noting the X99 is direct from Dornoch to Inverness whereas the E6 also stops in Alness and Dingwall.

 

[Strathtay 260]

Lack of timing points is one thing but they also don't have enough time to turn around. For example the E3 has 10 minutes to turn around in Glasgow, for usually packed and delayed buses this quite obviously isn't enough time to deboard, clean the bus as they do and board. Even worse if the drivers are swapping buses.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 18:56 ==

Also - the fact there is no timing point in Dundee on the, probably already delayed by 15+ minutes, E1 service from Edinburgh to Aberdeen is ridiculous. 3 minutes in the other direction.

 

[route101]

I know it's all calculated due to driver's driving hours etc but they really need to rethink their timings on the E3. Can't remember the last time I was onboard an on time departure from Glasgow...

Funny you say. I used the 1055am E3 from Glasgow. The inbound service arrived around 5 minutes before departure and that driver went away. Another driver came from another inbound service and we departed around 15 minutes late.

 

[Strathtay 260]

Yeah they like to leave you waiting at Buchanan. Happened to me as well, you need to wait for whatever bus the drivers are swapping over with to arrive as well and then maybe you will depart 10 mins from then!

 

[route101]

Yeah they like to leave you waiting at Buchanan. Happened to me as well, you need to wait for whatever bus the drivers are swapping over with to arrive as well and then maybe you will depart 10 mins from then!

First time I have had a late running Ember service and we made up some of the time.

 

[Buzby]

Yeah they like to leave you waiting at Buchanan. Happened to me as well, you need to wait for whatever bus

You must have been unlucky. On my last three trips (where there was a Buchanan driver change) the outgoing driver processed the waiting passengers and let them board. This may have been due to the bus he was swapping to had not arrived, but even so - good customer service.

 

[Resuwen]

I fail to see how this company is making any money

 

[CMBS]

I fail to see how this company is making any money

I think a lot of it is to do with exploiting the concessionary fare scheme, if say you dont booked onto a service, you get charged double the fare, which is seen as standard because you are just boarding as you would a normal bus. The Scottish Government reimburses 80% of that "standard fare" so in theory Ember is making double the profit of standard operators in terms of concessionary fares. I believe they also have strong ties with the SNP so there's a bit of propping up and lobbying going on there. The additional surplus also allows them to operate unconventional night and rural services while still having a bit left over.

 

[paravostok]

I think a lot of it is to do with exploiting the concessionary fare scheme, if say you dont booked onto a service, you get charged double the fare, which is seen as standard because you are just boarding as you would a normal bus. The Scottish Government reimburses 80% of that "standard fare" so in theory Ember is making double the profit of standard operators in terms of concessionary fares. I believe they also have strong ties with the SNP so there's a bit of propping up and lobbying going on there. The additional surplus also allows them to operate unconventional night and rural services while still having a bit left over.

Every bus company does this in Scotland, its why for example with First sometimes a day ticket is cheaper than a single, because thats what the reimbursement is based on. They wrote about it previously and obviously its an issue, especially with the £2 cap as it means eventually the fares will become abstract as nobody is ever paying them, they're either getting a £2 single, using an NEC pass, or buying some other kind of ticket like a return. Hopefully bus franchising will get a move on bevause at this point Ember especially is essentially an arms length business of the Scottish government given how much investment they've gotten, from the covid grants, to ScotZEB 1, 2, and 3, Ember is in a unique situation where they don't have vehicle purchase costs, don't have depot/charging costs, and don't have to pay for petrol. This makes their business very lucrative and as worked out before, assuming roughly private hire rates, it takes very few people to break even.

 

[computerSaysNo]

The Scottish Government reimburses 80% of that "standard fare"

They don't get reimbursed 80%, it's much closer to 50% but the exact amount depends on the type of card used. I can't remember the exact amounts offhand.

 

[CMBS]

Looks like Ember has managed to made Stagecoach hit the bucket for a first.

Strange because when I used the X99 just a few days ago it was decently packed.

https://www.johnogroat-journal.co.u...gecoach-x99-service-between-caithness-446586/

 

[Deerfold]

The English concessionary rules allow any service that requires booking to be excluded. I also understand that the Scottish concessionary rate is more generous than most English equivalents, so it is far from certain that Ember's business model will work south of the border.

The question you responded to wasn't about concessionary passes, but about restrictions on coaches bought using grants.

 

[Sealink]

I was a good 35 minutes late on the E6 from Inverness to Thurso last night and received an email this morning refunding my £2 as account credit for a future booking. I had no idea this was Ember's policy.

It was one of the bigger coaches on that service - they are very comfy, even when almost fully loaded like last night.

Yes, automatic refund if you are delayed by 30 minutes or more.

On the plus side, you do still receive an automatic full refund if you arrive 30+ minutes late at your destination.

This was posted in February, I can't remember when this was introduced.

 

[Stan Drews]

Every bus company does this in Scotland, its why for example with First sometimes a day ticket is cheaper than a single, because thats what the reimbursement is based on. They wrote about it previously and obviously its an issue, especially with the £2 cap as it means eventually the fares will become abstract as nobody is ever paying them, they're either getting a £2 single, using an NEC pass, or buying some other kind of ticket like a return. Hopefully bus franchising will get a move on bevause at this point Ember especially is essentially an arms length business of the Scottish government given how much investment they've gotten, from the covid grants, to ScotZEB 1, 2, and 3, Ember is in a unique situation where they don't have vehicle purchase costs, don't have depot/charging costs, and don't have to pay for petrol. This makes their business very lucrative and as worked out before, assuming roughly private hire rates, it takes very few people to break even.

Who do you think is paying for the coaches they have bought? ScotZeb only pays for a proportion of the ADDITIONAL costs of buying electric rather than conventional diesel. Therefore, on average they will have spent somewhere around £300k of their own money for each coach.
Who do you think is providing the free electricity to charge their coaches, often at third party sites?
What makes you think they can operate several depots without it costing them anything?