Ember: Electric coach service

[David M]

I say this as someone who loves Ember but, other than connecting services, like the E1/E10 currently, I don't know anyone who purposefully chooses a Edinburgh-Glasgow bus, it's just whatever shows up first, and given citylink is already every 15 mins, it might be hard to pick up a meaningful amount of passengers.

If they could somehow make the journey quicker than Citylink and could guarantee a working toilet then I'd be more than happy to make them my default.

 

[takno]

I say this as someone who loves Ember but, other than connecting services, like the E1/E10 currently, I don't know anyone who purposefully chooses a Edinburgh-Glasgow bus, it's just whatever shows up first, and given citylink is already every 15 mins, it might be hard to pick up a meaningful amount of passengers.

There might be a market for people who plan it and buy upfront, although of course Flix are strong there. Between the other operators and the train it would be a hell of a tough market.

Perhaps if it was the first leg of a longer journey, like Edinburgh to Glasgow Airport/Ayr/Oban or Glasgow Newcastle

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I wonder if we might see Ember try and tap into the tourist markets during high season next year? I don’t think it’s impossible for a Skye service to come along for example. It can’t be long before they venture south of the border either.

I still find it crazy that this operation has grown so quickly in 4 years. Yes it’s got to be making a decent amount money, but they must have some wealthy backers who are able to take on the high set up costs.

My one concern has been, the expansion never seems to level off. It’s just expand, expand and expand. I like this, but it’s also somewhat risky. You’re not allowing yourself to catch up really. I have no doubt most of these ideas will work when they are brought in, but I do think they should be looking at just stabilising things for 6 months or so to just solidify it. It’s never felt like sustained growth, but rather rapid expansion.

Not trying to be negative, but I guess if anyone can make it work it’s probably Ember!

 

[Strathtay 260]

Would that be the new Edinburgh to Glasgow service which keeps on being suggested?

I heard they could be used for some sort of Kirriemuir - MSIP staff shuttle. Unsure if that's still a plan.

 

[paravostok]

There might be a market for people who plan it and buy upfront, although of course Flix are strong there. Between the other operators and the train it would be a hell of a tough market.

Perhaps if it was the first leg of a longer journey, like Edinburgh to Glasgow Airport/Ayr/Oban or Glasgow Newcastle

This is what I mean, I think it could do strongly as a connecting service, otherwise to seperate themselves they'd probably have to make some odd stops, maybe West Lothian? but then I'm sure most folk wouldn't take it as it's slower, it must be a rough balancing act

 

[MotCO]

I wonder if we might see Ember try and tap into the tourist markets during high season next year? I don’t think it’s impossible for a Skye service to come along for example. It can’t be long before they venture south of the border either.

I still find it crazy that this operation has grown so quickly in 4 years. Yes it’s got to be making a decent amount money, but they must have some wealthy backers who are able to take on the high set up costs.

My one concern has been, the expansion never seems to level off. It’s just expand, expand and expand. I like this, but it’s also somewhat risky. You’re not allowing yourself to catch up really. I have no doubt most of these ideas will work when they are brought in, but I do think they should be looking at just stabilising things for 6 months or so to just solidify it. It’s never felt like sustained growth, but rather rapid expansion.

Not trying to be negative, but I guess if anyone can make it work it’s probably Ember!

Yes, there is a danger of becoming too big, and losing sight of the smaller things which make the service attractive to passengers.

 

[EMU303]

The overall coach market in Scotland is remarkably competitive, to the point where it seems unsustainable? Ember, Citylink, Flix, plus Scotrail too. I’m guessing this competition has expanded the market but presumably not to the extent it is sustainable long term. Perhaps we will see some consolidation in the not too distant future…

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The overall coach market in Scotland is remarkably competitive, to the point where it seems unsustainable? Ember, Citylink, Flix, plus Scotrail too. I’m guessing this competition has expanded the market but presumably not to the extent it is sustainable long term. Perhaps we will see some consolidation in the not too distant future…

Pre covid it was never this competitive. You had the odd other service but generally Citylink had a monopoly, whilst also having the Megabus partnership. That never made the market that attractive in my own opinion.

I think now though it’s the polar opposite. There’s too much now. Citylink are the established brand, Flixbus offer the budget option, while Ember are the more environmentally sustainable option. I’d have Flixbus cheapest, Ember in the middle (except where they are on their own, they’re quite cheap) and Citylink generally the more expensive. Different routes seem to have different prices though so it’s not a set rule everywhere.

Citylink feels almost untouchable while Flixbus is a massive company. Would Ember be the one to lose out if it got out of hand? Who knows.

 

[Davester50]

while Ember are the more environmentally sustainable option.

I don't think that even matters. It's the convenience of it's ticketing and simplicity to change plans, plus the through the night service that's the big seller.

 

[markymark2000]

I think now though it’s the polar opposite. There’s too much now.

I think people forget that the Scottish Government is paying silly sums of money though to give anyone under 22 and over 60 free travel on these buses. And with the way the reimbursement is set, coaches in Scotland is almost a licence to print money. If there were restrictions put on using the concessionary pass on coaches (except where there are either no, or very few alternatives) and/or the Scottish Govt changed the reimbursement formulas to include online fares somehow, the coach network would near crumble overnight as most people would go back to using trains or using local buses where they exist.

For a bus company, it's never been a better time to run coaches in Scotland. Set your onboard fares as high as you want (Scottish Govt will pay the reimbursement on it with no questions asked), throw cheap online fares out to win over the 24-59 age bracket as well as those who don't live in Scotland. Then all you have to do is be good at marketing and get to the passenger infront of your competitor. If you don't have to compete on price, and thanks to government policy people are literally incentivised heavily to not use the train and instead use the coach, it's so much easier to get into the market.

I think before Ember and Flix, Citylink used to have queues of people waiting for buses. Now there are more buses to carry the passengers. There is no need for brand loyalty as much either because they are all free (for those with the NEC card) and all take roughly the same time.

 

[Strathtay 260]

The overall coach market in Scotland is remarkably competitive, to the point where it seems unsustainable?

Reminds me of the shutdown last year of Megabus in England. Wasn't that because of too much competition?

 

[N1]

I think people forget that the Scottish Government is paying silly sums of money though to give anyone under 22 and over 60 free travel on these buses.

Although for over 60s and disabled passenger NEC reimbursement there is an overall funding cap, so once that is spent operators are just competing with each other for slices of the pie.

No overall funding cap has been set yet for Under 22, but probably will be next financial year.

I think Glasgow to Edinburgh there is room for some other coach routes, e.g. Glasgow Airport to Edinburgh southside via Glasgow southside or EK. Not currently met by coaches and could also take a slice of train traffic if offering better door-to-door times.

 

[Man of Kent]

I still find it crazy that this operation has grown so quickly in 4 years. Yes it’s got to be making a decent amount money, but they must have some wealthy backers who are able to take on the high set up costs.

No need to guess. The accounts have been published on Companies House website this week, and show a loss of £1.8m on turnover of £9.1m.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

No need to guess. The accounts have been published on Companies House website this week, and show a loss of £1.8m on turnover of £9.1m.

Mixed bag. Good turnover, but a loss that could simply be from investments among other things.

 

[markymark2000]

Although for over 60s and disabled passenger NEC reimbursement there is an overall funding cap, so once that is spent operators are just competing with each other for slices of the pie.

But does that not encourage everyone to rinse the budget as much as they can shorter term (because if they don't, there is a risk that a competitor will)?

No overall funding cap has been set yet for Under 22, but probably will be next financial year.

Needs more than a funding cap, needs a large change to stop use on the express coaches where there are viable alternatives (ie local bus or train). Or perhaps reduce the reimbursement where there is direct competition (to encourage operators to do different things. A bit like the revenue abstraction test that happens on the railways)

I think Glasgow to Edinburgh there is room for some other coach routes, e.g. Glasgow Airport to Edinburgh southside via Glasgow southside or EK. Not currently met by coaches and could also take a slice of train traffic if offering better door-to-door times.

I fully agree with you here that there should be a focus on more and different links. Each operator now tends to just focus on duplicating over existing corridors rather than providing new links.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I fully agree with you here that there should be a focus on more and different links. Each operator now tends to just focus on duplicating over existing corridors rather than providing new links.

I think that’s more of what my point is about long term sustainability. Ember seem to be the only one properly trying some unique things. Ember are also duplicating, but at least they’ve got elements of their own ideas.

Things like Flixbus’ 090 just feel absolutely pointless, when you consider how well run the 900 is.

 

[N1]

But does that not encourage everyone to rinse the budget as much as they can shorter term (because if they don't, there is a risk that a competitor will)?

Yes agreed, this is exactly what happens. At least there is a mechanism to stop it being a full on gravy bus...

In my opinion, free travel should just be extended to rail travel. Currently in the ridiculous situation that the Scottish Government pay private bus and coach operates for people not to travel by nationalised train.

 

[takno]

I still find it crazy that this operation has grown so quickly in 4 years. Yes it’s got to be making a decent amount money, but they must have some wealthy backers who are able to take on the high set up costs.

My one concern has been, the expansion never seems to level off. It’s just expand, expand and expand. I like this, but it’s also somewhat risky. You’re not allowing yourself to catch up really. I have no doubt most of these ideas will work when they are brought in, but I do think they should be looking at just stabilising things for 6 months or so to just solidify it. It’s never felt like sustained growth, but rather rapid expansion.

Not trying to be negative, but I guess if anyone can make it work it’s probably Ember!

Ember took on quite a lot of venture capital. I would assume that the money's long-term goal is to force Citylink out of the market and then raise fares.

 

[Man of Kent]

Mixed bag. Good turnover, but a loss that could simply be from investments among other things.

No, that's shown separately. An increase of £18m over the previous year (£9m). Some of the loss is coming from depreciation, but like a number of start-up businesses they are, as @takno observes in post #947, ploughing capital in at an alarming rate. The ultimate outcome will largely depend on who has got the deepest pockets - Ember, Flixbus or Citylink.

 

[MotCO]

Ember took on quite a lot of venture capital. I would assume that the money's long-term goal is to force Citylink out of the market and then raise fares.

Or maybe the loss is caused by loan repayments to the venture capitalists, which over time could reduce, thereby increasing profits.

 

[takno]

Or maybe the loss is caused by loan repayments to the venture capitalists, which over time could reduce, thereby increasing profits.

I believe it was investment rather than venture debt, but I can't remember the details. In any case I can't imagine they would want to structure any investment debt so that repaying it caused losses, since that just leads to replacing the investment debt with more expensive financing.

 

[route101]

Going up against the 900 is hard, as its frequent. Flixbus 090 has hardly set the heather on fire.

 

[astroatlantica]

Spotted in south inch car park in Perth today, looks to be 3 high power CCS outlets for two bus sized "authorised vehicles only spaces" wondering if that means ember plan on using the city for longer term route origin points (such as Perth to Oban and FW)

 

[oldman]

No need to guess. The accounts have been published on Companies House website this week, and show a loss of £1.8m on turnover of £9.1m.

Not very informative. No directors' report on the activities of the company, only a sketchy profit-and-loss account. They are a small company and private not a plc, but if I am supporting them via Holyrood, I would quite like to know.

 

[InOban]

No need to guess. The accounts have been published on Companies House website this week, and show a loss of £1.8m on turnover of £9.1m.

I wonder what %age of that £9.1m came from ScoGov by reimbursement of concessionary travel ?90%?

The concessionary fare system in Scotland is a classic example of the law of unintended consequences. It included coach travel because in many rural areas the coach also provided a bus service For example if you live in Inveraray and need to go to Lochgilphead (supermarket, doctor, hospital school etc) the coach provides your bus service. The extension to under 22s was to make it cheaper from young people to get to work or college. It can never have been the intention to subsidise Intercity express services travelling nonstop between Perth and Inverness or Dundee and Aberdeen. The operators are (quite legitimately ) gaming the system.

I would argue that concessionary fares should only be available on services which genuinely provide a frequent-stop, turn-up-and-go bus service in addition to their end to end traffic. At present there is one daily coach between Perth and Inverness which goes through every village en route. It's the only one which provides any sort of bus service. Similarly, only Perth to Aberdeen services which leave the A90 to go through Forfar Brechin Laurencekirk and Stonehaven would be providing a bus service.

It's just occurred to me that many, possibly most, concession holders are booking their seat online. As an online booking, the operator should only be reimbursed the online fare.

As others have said it's crazy that the ScoGov is subsidising coach services which compete with their own subsidised trains. But we have elections next May so no hard decisions will be taken.

 

[PG]

As others have said it's crazy that the ScoGov is subsidising coach services which compete with their own subsidised trains. But we have elections next May so no hard decisions will be taken.

Are the politicians who are currently in opposition even aware of this? If yes, do they think it will be a vote winner to withdraw useage of intercity coaches from NEC holders who probably represent a sizeable percentage of potential voters?

 

[overthewater]

They didn't care when the passes were valid on Citylink gold where passengers got free tea/coffee, snack and a bottle of irn bru....

 

[megabusser]

Spotted in this morning's Edinburgh Minute newsletter that Ember are providing a coach service from Edinburgh city centre to the Lost Shore surf resort in Edinburgh. Bookings via Lost Shore rather than direct with Ember and NEC cards appear to not be valid (but a very fair price of £2.20 single).

Announcement on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/posts/alej...p&rcm=ACoAAAvlUL8BjZILzsYk1cgAJVPuRUuX8B-p0Ck
Lost Shore website with timetable and other info: https://www.lostshore.com/visit/surf-bus/?ref=edinburghminute.com

Timetable has 3 services each way per day from tomorrow, increasing to 6 from 26/11.

Seems like a really positive development, especially if the surf place is trying to attract young folk who are less likely to have access to a car. Perhaps a shame that they couldn't also have teamed up with the climbing centre at Ratho, who could also do with better connectivity.

 

[Porty]

Spotted in this morning's Edinburgh Minute newsletter that Ember are providing a coach service from Edinburgh city centre to the Lost Shore surf resort in Edinburgh. Bookings via Lost Shore rather than direct with Ember and NEC cards appear to not be valid (but a very fair price of £2.20 single).

Announcement on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/posts/alej...p&rcm=ACoAAAvlUL8BjZILzsYk1cgAJVPuRUuX8B-p0Ck
Lost Shore website with timetable and other info: https://www.lostshore.com/visit/surf-bus/?ref=edinburghminute.com

Timetable has 3 services each way per day from tomorrow, increasing to 6 from 26/11.

Seems like a really positive development, especially if the surf place is trying to attract young folk who are less likely to have access to a car. Perhaps a shame that they couldn't also have teamed up with the climbing centre at Ratho, who could also do with better connectivity.

Clearly states it's a private hire service and not bookable via Ember itself. Even as a pass holder I may still try it out as I've been thinking of organising a walk from Ratho, via the canal, to Lost Shore, with a bite to eat there whilst watching the surfers. Gives an option of then returning to Edinburgh direct for £2.20. Maybe Ember ought to run it as a "normal" commercial service as there may be customers in Ratho who would be happy to use it, even if only three times daily, as it would be a lot quicker than any other public transport alternative.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Clearly states it's a private hire service and not bookable via Ember itself. Even as a pass holder I may still try it out as I've been thinking of organising a walk from Ratho, via the canal, to Lost Shore, with a bite to eat there whilst watching the surfers. Gives an option of then returning to Edinburgh direct for £2.20. Maybe Ember ought to run it as a "normal" commercial service as there may be customers in Ratho who would be happy to use it, even if only three times daily, as it would be a lot quicker than any other public transport alternative.

I'm not sure if running it as a standard service would be permitted as the council may see it as competing with their subsidised local service.