Embarrassed to be English

[MKB]

I know I should pay more attention to threads that discuss travel outside of my usual haunts, so I can only blame myself for getting scammed into buying a first-class ticket from Victoria to Falmer last Wednesday in order to get to the Brighton v Liverpool game.

To sell and market this as a separate class when the seat, the carriage and the service – for which read none – are identical to the adjacent standard class seats is worthy of an episode of The Hustle. Southern Trains should be ashamed. But this will be common knowledge to their regular customers and no doubt most of this board, so I’ll chalk that one down to experience.

What also came as a complete shock to this VT/LM regular was the treatment of a Spanish couple who got on at Clapham Junction with a ticket for Gatwick Airport. Less than two minutes after they had sat down opposite me, a ticket check revealed they only had standard class tickets. It was clear from their reaction that they had no idea they had sat down in the wrong seats and immediately got up to move to the adjacent area of the carriage.
They were then told to sit back down as they were not allowed to move. They were told that they must pay a penalty fare of £20 each. I tried to plead on their behalf that this was harsh considering they had only just sat down, were clearly not familiar with our railways, it was obvious that they had not intended to travel in the wrong class, and that it was no way to treat visitors to our country.

I asked what would happen if they did not pay the £20 penalty fare. The lead member of staff said that as this couple were not from the UK, they would be regarded as having no fixed abode, and British Transport Police would detain them until they could appear before a magistrate the following day.

I have seen numerous people, including off-duty railway staff, trying to blag a free first-class upgrade. Even well into a journey, I have never before seen any greater punishment than being sent back to cattle class. This incident left me feeling embarrassed and angry that we would treat overseas visitors like this.

I did wonder, from the legal experts around here, whether the way this was handled and the threats that were made were correct?

 

[djo]

I would report the incident to Southern, tell them all the details. I travel on that line daily, and as stated if someone makes a mistake and gets in 1st, they get shifted to standard, end of story.

D

 

[Roylang]

I can't comment on the legal situation, but I can tell you that they would not have been treated any better in a number of other European countries. I have seen Swedish, Belgian and Dutch gaurds get very strict with foreign travellers who have not done what they should (even though the rules were not written in anything other than local language(s)) and meet out fines much bigger that £20 a head.

In one instance, I saw a couple fined (if I recall correctly) €100 each for not findign the guard when they boarded at an un-manned station and were unware that they were expected to walk, with luggage, through a nine coach train to find him.

Roy

 

[bb21]

I agree that the treatment is harsh and that staff are briefed about using discretion towards especially overseas visitors.

I reckon reporting the incident to Southern would be the best move. Although strictly speaking the RPIs were entitled to issue a Penalty Fare, it was probably not the most appropriate course of action given the situation you have described.

 

[Bungle73]

What a shoddy way to treat anyone, no matter whether they are from the UK or not.

 

[yorkie]

They were then told to sit back down as they were not allowed to move. They were told that they must pay a penalty fare of £20 each. I tried to plead on their behalf that this was harsh considering they had only just sat down, were clearly not familiar with our railways, it was obvious that they had not intended to travel in the wrong class, and that it was no way to treat visitors to our country.

This is contrary to Penalty Fares legislation. I suggest you contact the relevant authorities (not sure if it's the DfT/ORR) as Southern are acting in a way that should see their license to issue PFs withdrawn.

Southern don't really respect what the rules say, they just act how they want. Evidence of this can be found by using a Southern Only ticket on certain trains that are, in their own words "operated by Southern" (see other threads), so it's hardly surprising to see some of their staff acting in this way.

Some of their ticket office staff do not adhere to impartial retailing rules, either.

They're quick to accuse customers of being in the wrong, but they're not so quick to get their own house in order. I hold Chris Burchell to account for this, he's certainly aware of some of the issues, and is incapable it seems of either taking the time to read, or understand the NRCoC. Does he make effective checks to ensure his staff are adhering to the NRCoC? No, because some of his staff claim that the NRCoC does not apply to them. Does he ensure his staff are adhering to PF legislation? On the evidence of this thread, and the recent Brighton-Clapham thread, I have serious doubts.

It's a shame that some railway industry journalists rave about how good he is, clearly he's overrated.

Anyway, certainly complain to Southern but I would not leave it there, this should be taken further.

Using discretion. Authorised collectors must be given the discretion not to charge a penalty
fare in a particular instance, even where the passenger is liable to pay a penalty fare under the
Penalty Fares Rules. Operators must think carefully about the guidelines they give to
authorised collectors about how they should use this discretion. We expect authorised
collectors to use discretion towards:
• passengers who have mobility problems and passengers who are frail, elderly or heavily
pregnant, who may not be able to reach the ticket office easily at the station where they
joined the train, particularly if this would involve a footbridge, steps or a long walk (frail,
elderly, or heavily pregnant passengers may not be able to stand in a ticket queue for very
long);
• passengers who are not aware of the scheme because they are blind or partially sighted, are a
foreign visitor who lives abroad, do not speak English very well, or have learning difficulties;
• passengers who are travelling from stations where the only ticket facilities available are
ticket machines or a ‘permit to travel’ machine, and who have enough money (or a credit or
debit card) to buy a ticket but not in the form needed to use the ticket or ‘permit to travel’
machine;
• passengers who are travelling from stations where the only ticket facilities available are
ticket machines and who claim that the machines were accepting coins only, or the exact fare
only, and the passenger did not have the necessary coins (unless the authorised collector can
confirm that the machines were in fact working normally);
• passengers who are travelling from a station where the authorised collector has been told
that long ticket office queues have built up, or where fewer ticket windows are open than
normal;
• passengers with standard class tickets who are elderly or pregnant and who are travelling in
first class accommodation because no standard class seats are available; and
• all passengers when the train service is severely disrupted.

I asked what would happen if they did not pay the £20 penalty fare. The lead member of staff said that as this couple were not from the UK, they would be regarded as having no fixed abode, and British Transport Police would detain them until they could appear before a magistrate the following day.

I would hope BTP would take the details of the inspector for wasting police time. I hope you got the name of the inspector though (I would have).

 

[MKB]

I would hope BTP would take the details of the inspector for wasting police time. I hope you got the name of the inspector though (I would have).

There was the train manager plus what I assume to be two revenue protection officers, one male and one female. The man did all the talking . (Are they the correct job titles on Southern?) Yes I did make a mental note of his name. It was easy to remember as it was the same name as a current Lib Dem minister whose college room shared a wall with mine at uni.

Thanks for the feedback so far. I shall send a letter to Southern copied to Passenger Focus and the ORR.

Just to be clear for my letter, did the staff have any legal right to stop the passengers moving to their correct accommodation? And, is there any basis in law for treating EU citizens with an address outside the UK differently from EU citizens with a UK address?

 

[mallard]

As for the "First Class" thing, yes, "First Class" on London commuter trains is a very different product to "First Class" in an Intercity operator. It basically only exists to "guarantee" a seat for the well-healed peak-time commuter and should not be bought for an off-peak journey.

Although Southern's 442s and SWT's 444s do have something more akin to "proper" first-class, it's still poor compared to IC operators.

 

[jon0844]

There is surely no way they could have been detained. They do have a fixed abode, which is simply outside of the UK - and also within the EU that we part of.

It seems like a very poor bluff attempt to get a result when the reality is they wouldn't normally bother with foreigners.

 

[shinkansen1966]

They were then told to sit back down as they were not allowed to move. They were told that they must pay a penalty fare of £20 each.

So they were unable to move to the standard class section and settle the fine there ?

Is there criminal law about asking someone to stay put in a particular place ?

 

[wintonian]

False imprisonment?

 

[Chapeltom]

After reading this, I once again consider myself embarrassed to be English. What a nice way to treat foreign visitors on one of the most complex railway systems in the world. Penalty fares, disgraceful really and a laugh in the face of the word discretion.

 

[Lampshade]

They wouldn't be able to detain them anyway, a Penalty Fare is a civil debt as opposed to criminal; it'd be like being detained for not paying a parking ticket.

 

[jon0844]

I suspect the RPI knew damn well that a) it was impossible to do and b) they'd never get BTP out, so work on the basis that a foreigner probably won't know and grab a nice easy £20 each. How to do it? Lie.

I've seen foreigners sit in first class many times on trains and while I'm sure some do know, I'd say that I honestly believe many don't and made a simple mistake.. especially considering how poorly marked some first class seating areas can be.

Take a FCC 317/1 for example, or a partially refreshed FCC 321 that had no 1 symbols or stickers anywhere, so the only clue to first class was on the antimacassars - and, guess what, as people sit down - they cover these!

As an aside, one incident that annoyed me (well one of a few!) was when someone (pre-gates at the station) ran for a train and asked an RPI that was standing by the doors if he could buy a ticket on the train. Being DOO, let's ignore the fact that if there had been no RPI, he couldn't have asked to buy one and may have been caught - the fact is, there was and he asked first before he boarded. Anyway, he asked a couple of times and the RPI didn't respond and tried to look busy. Then the doors closed and the train started moving, and then he responded by saying you couldn't buy a ticket on the train and gave him a penalty fare right there and then!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There is surely no way they could have been detained.

Is there criminal law about asking someone to stay put in a particular place ?

I will not attempt to answer these questions right now. It may be enough to know that there has been some vigourous argument on this question; in other threads on this forum and elsewhere.

I am satisfied that :
when an Offence (this includes many Railway Ticketing irregularities) has been committed;
is suspected of having been committed; or,
is likely to be about to be committed,
then an 'Officer of the Railways' is quite entitled to interview the person.

But, there appears to be dissagreement over the right of detention beyond establishing a person's identity, and, over the grounds for suspecting that an Offence has been committed, and, the pre-requisites which authorise the 'Officer of the Railways' to detain a passenger (which may and may not amount to Arrest), and, the neccessary framework for such an Interview to be conducted (beyond merely confirming a person's identity).

 

[jon0844]

In this case, it seems that by not having a UK address they were going to be held overnight for being homeless. That clearly couldn't happen! Usually when you travel, you'd be asked to give details of where you're staying, like a hotel. You are obviously not of 'no fixed abode' and the RPI was just acting like a ****.

Refusing to pay is not the same as refusing to give details of their indentity, which I am sure they could and would have done, namely in the form of their passport or a drivers licence - or just giving an address verbally and letting the RPI do the necessary checks (can't find an address in Spain? Not the fault of the passengers now is it?).

The fact is the TOC wouldn't pursue someone abroad in most cases (any?) so the RPI had the bright idea to come over all heavy handed, like he had super powers to do anything he liked and all simply to get them to pay there and then.

While the PF may have been valid, the circumstances if completely true do make me think it's worthy of a complaint. Still, it won't be the first or last time I've seen RPIs threaten powers they don't have, while letting people off when it's clear they'd get grief (like a bunch of youths sticking their fingers up to them).

There are clearly some bad apples out there, as you'd expect. The important thing is seeing how management deal with it. Do they deal with it, or come back with a wishy washy response and then give the staff member a pat on the back for making some money?

 

[Greenback]

Jon, perhaps your FCC mate has moved to Southern?

Seriously though, this is an appalling way to behave and Southern should be held accountable for the actions of their representatives.

 

[jon0844]

Well, after seeing the lady with her feet on the seats and not wanting to work, and the man who was proud of the death of a police officer, there's actually a long list of people it could have been.

Actually, I've just found a photo on the FCC website of the latest generation of RPIs we can look out for...

 

[chrisg]

Regarding first class on Southern....its a joke. I emailed their customer services team once, but don't have the email, asking what the difference between standard and first class was. Their response basically said

1) more chance of getting a seat

2) there is the use of an antimacassar on the seat.

I think its madness, seeing as whenever I travelled on Southern, the 1st class areas were all full and hence you'd have no greater chance of getting a seat. I don't know what happens if you've got a 1st class ticket and there are no seats available. To me it seems you'd be better off buying a standard ticket as Southern 344s aren't exactly over-burdened with 1st class seating areas.

I add to the negative comments of the Southern representative on the train. I find that all RPIs are generally biased against the customer and I've never seen one use the discretion available, despite it seeming appropriate. Still, isn't that whats to be expected when the process is geared towards making money as opposed to providing a service?

 

[bb21]

1) more chance of getting a seat

That essentially is what many people pay the premium for.

It is in Southern's interests to get the First Class capacity right, or those people will soon realise that they are no better off and decide to save the extra money that they pay.

To me it seems you'd be better off buying a standard ticket as Southern 344s aren't exactly over-burdened with 1st class seating areas.

Can't really figure out what a 344 is and what you actually mean. Southern have 377s mainly. (OK I see why now.)

 

[chrisg]

I meant 377, of course. Now I don't use them anymore I seem to have forgotten the number!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

But as Satan's Barrister would say - ignorance is no excuse and it will deter them and any other miscreants from doing such evil things again.
As for Southern's "First" I recall buying a £10 first class over the £5 standard on their Oystercard promotion a few years back and thought that even at that price to go to Portsmouth with it was a waste of money.