Embarking/disembarking Improvements...?

[HST-DAVE]

I see embarking/disembarking mentioned in another thread and it appears to be a common issue with train travellers, espescially commuters. Is there a solution that can be incorporated in new train design?
My experiences at regular commuting were with the SR slam shut doors in the 80's. Note - I then moved, now only occasional intercity trips on NORW-LST, live close to my where I work so cant train it.

Is the answer more doors? or wider corridors? or something entirely different?

comments/suggestions much appreciated... thanks ... Dave

 

[Mojo]

A solution to what?

 

[HST-DAVE]

A solution to passenger congestion e.g. embarking/disembarking at the same time and getting in each others way? and/or passengers knocking into already seated passengers?
maybe it isn't a problem afterall and is an accepted part of the travelling experience

 

[Malderon]

Personally I think one improvement could be going back to 2+2 in every coach! The aisles are so narrow on 3+2 377s for instance that it takes people much longer to walk down within the carriages.

This is especially bad as people also seem to prefer to stand than use the middle seat of the "3" so you are only getting four seats per row anyway!

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Personally I think one improvement could be going back to 2+2 in every coach! The aisles are so narrow on 3+2 377s for instance that it takes people much longer to walk down within the carriages.

This is especially bad as people also seem to prefer to stand than use the middle seat of the "3" so you are only getting four seats per row anyway!

We think a combination of 2 + 2 seating, larger vestibules and greater use of perches / tip-up seats would improve matters, like this.

Some would argue that less tables are needed for commuter stock, and I wouldn't argue with this, but I wouldn't add seats in lieu of the tables, just provide more space for free movement of people.

 

[HST-DAVE]

KingFisher, cool link, thanks, it certainly looks more spacious. I guess in theory all the seats could be made to tip up (like at cinema) or at least the ones on the inner corridor path..
2+3 is a definate no go
Dave

 

[swt_passenger]

How about remove seats to reduce 3+2 to 2+2 throughout train. Provide perch seats in expanded vestibule areas, and include multi purpose wheelchair/pushchair/bike spaces.

That'll basically be just like SWT 455s then. It can be done...

Pics here: http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class455_52.html

Notice how in the last interior photo they've reduced to single seats either side of the doors.

 

[amcluesent]

The palaver on FCCs 377 on Thameslink is something to behold. Loads of peeps do a few stops e.g Farringdon to St Pancras for transfer and loads there want to get on. The time it takes to shuffle up the carriage and out is ridiculous. Obviously the designers of the 377 never expected 125% loading!

 

[HST-DAVE]

swt, well, they've certainly tried hard to improve it. Not sure about all the handrails, but I guess they will be expecting alot of standing passengers and people walking when train moves... cheers.. Dave

 

[MCR247]

swt, well, they've certainly tried hard to improve it. Not sure about all the handrails, but I guess they will be expecting alot of standing passengers and people walking when train moves... cheers.. Dave

What else are people supposed to hold onto?!

 

[GodAtum]

In a perfect world there would be an announcement as to what side the train doors will open at the next stop so people can shuffle over to the correct side.

 

[HST-DAVE]

MCR, I was thinking of little handles on the top of each seat...maybe not as practical but more pleasing to the eye maybe
oh.. and the odd dangly thingy from the roof like on tube trains
..Dave

 

[Mojo]

Where does this "nobody sits in the middle on 3+2" come from? I was at Marylebone last night and every single seat in the middle was taken. This is a regular occurrence. I also see Metropolitan line trains with 3 people like this on a frequent basis.

 

[MCR247]

It depends on the area I suppose. me123 has said numerous times that they aren't used on SPT trains, and they cause the train to be busier!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

MCR, I was thinking of little handles on the top of each seat...maybe not as practical but more pleasing to the eye maybe
oh.. and the odd dangly thingy from the roof like on tube trains
..Dave

A pole would give much more support for someone standing still than a little handle on seats like these. They are mainly useful when walking through a train.

 

[DavidSmith]

Where does this "nobody sits in the middle on 3+2" come from? I was at Marylebone last night and every single seat in the middle was taken. This is a regular occurrence. I also see Metropolitan line trains with 3 people like this on a frequent basis.

Well they don't in Birmingham on the show hill lines! Maybe a regional thing?

 

[Mike395]

If I'm honest, I reckon a 'yellow box' all the way down the platform to stop people waiting right next to the doors, with a clear sign to indicate it, would work wonders! The biggest problem with the embark/disembark process is people crowding the doors IME.

 

[HST-DAVE]

MCR, they're not real handles, they look more like teddy bear ears

I think I'm just against vertical poles cause I'm very tall (and top heavy) and seem to bang into them

Dave

 

[jon0844]

Where does this "nobody sits in the middle on 3+2" come from? I was at Marylebone last night and every single seat in the middle was taken. This is a regular occurrence. I also see Metropolitan line trains with 3 people like this on a frequent basis.

Depends on the rolling stock perhaps? The Met line trains are very wide, so you can easily fit three on a bench - but on a 313 it's pretty cramped and so many middle seats will be left empty.

Now, at some point when it gets very busy, people WILL force themselves down but it's uncomfortable for all concerned (not just those who are quite large) and even more so in the Winter when people wear thicker clothing and coats. You end up with someone sitting back, and the next person sitting forward.

2+2 is probably better use of the space for standing, and off-peak you have more than enough seats for people. A win win situation, especially if it enables trains to stop for less time at each station when people can get on/off.

Actually, 2+2 with more tip-up seats would be even more ideal. For all but the longest journeys, standing is something people are used to and don't mind doing - but they want more room.

 

[MCR247]

MCR, they're not real handles, they look more like teddy bear ears

I think I'm just against vertical poles cause I'm very tall (and top heavy) and seem to bang into them

Dave

What did you have it mind?

 

[chuckles1066]

If I'm honest, I reckon a 'yellow box' all the way down the platform to stop people waiting right next to the doors, with a clear sign to indicate it, would work wonders! The biggest problem with the embark/disembark process is people crowding the doors IME.

Save your breath, one of my first observations of using the railways was how difficult your average Brit seems to find the obviously complicated business of getting on and off of a train. Trains were pulling up and having to wait for an age before they could start up again.

I proposed a one door in, one door out solution.......you'd have trains in and out of stations in no time.

Got shot down in flames for daring to suggest it.......apparently the Brits wouldn't tolerate it/be able to comprehend it.

Well at least I tried.......

 

[Mojo]

Well they don't in Birmingham on the show hill lines! Maybe a regional thing?

I would say that's because most of them are airline seats. On a busy 150 in the sections by the doors (where you don't have to worry about legroom) I never saw that.

 

[Malderon]

With regards to the middle seat on 3+2 being used / not used, I think it even varies by service.

The service that I take daily (Portsmouth / Southampton to Victoria and back again) the middle seats seem to be very seldom used. (Although I tend to be in the front of the 377 which is 2+2 with tables for my laptop)

However the other day my train was terminated at Horsham and I got the slow Victoria train from their (Salfords, Coulsdon south etc) and there all the middle seats seemed to get used.

I think part of the trouble with them is that because the inside and outside seat get filled first, not only is it uncomfortable to use them, but it is hard to access them with the two inside passengers legs in the way. (I know the same could be said for the outside seat in 2+2 but people seem more willing to shuffle over for that one)

 

[The Barlow Boy]

The middle seat thing is also a question of personal space. Everyone has their own personal space limit and the occupancy of the middle seat means that a person has encroachment on their own space from both sides which can leave people feeling uncomfortable. That's why some people will stand rather than sit in a squeezed-in middle seat, especially if there's a porker in the outer seats.
There'll never be more than two passenger access doors on a coach nowadays for reasons of structural strength and cost - both installation and maintenance.
For inner and outer suburban working nothing, absolutely nothing, comes close in practical terms to an EPB or a VEP.
Someone posted a suggestion of door position markings on platforms. For regulars this would be superfluous, they know where the doors are located.

 

[jon0844]

With different rolling stock, markings on the platform couldn't work. And, for stations without DOO screens, trains won't always stop in the same place anyway.

At Hatfield I can stand in the exact position for each type of train, but at Finsbury Park the train can stop within a range of about 5 metres - so you're not always in the right place even with best intentions.

It works fine for the tube and that's about it.

 

[Mojo]

There'll never be more than two passenger access doors on a coach nowadays for reasons of structural strength and cost - both installation and maintenance.
For inner and outer suburban working nothing, absolutely nothing, comes close in practical terms to an EPB or a VEP.

What about trains on the Underground? The cars of the S-stock are roughly 16m (so shorter than those on National Rail services) which has 3 pairs of doors per car.

 

[HST-DAVE]

Looks like my idea for bringing back a double decker carraige is out of the question, it'll need doors everywhere

 

[Matt Taylor]

As for grab handles on aisle seats, is this what people have in mind?

http://matthew-taylor.fotopic.net/p67267720.html

Personally I think Southern have ruined the interior of the 442s but at least the grab handles are a good addition (although they really should be made easier to see for the visually impaired).

 

[HST-DAVE]

Thanks Matt, for link.

Now, if those handles had the centres cut out , i.e. so you can put your fingers thro, for added grip, then they'll be just right imho.

Dave

 

[MCR247]

I'd prefer a pole personally, more people can hold onto it

 

[jopsuk]

with the "get off at one end, on at the other" idea I can see it maybe, just maybe, working for "end door" stock- ie Intercity stock/units, 444s, 158s etc. With ⅓/⅔ and ¼/¾ door arrangements (ie most commuter, and hence busy) stock, the section of the carriage between the end of the carriage and the "in" door would become difficult to disembark from, as you'd then be expected to walk past a door that people are getting on through to the other end of the carriage- potentially slowing things down further.

All that is needed really is for people to pay heed to the byelaw that states that you've got to let everyone who wants off off before you try to board. It is already in the byelaws. Busy stations often have platform staff- perhaps they could make more frequent reminders?