Email from Trainline asking about suspicious activity

[TheOrangeSpeak]

Hello all,

After requesting a refund for an accidentally booking, a "Revenue Protection Specialist" from the trainline reached out to me asking for my reason behind this refund request. However, the email then noted that auto checks had raised suspicious activity on my account in the past relating to dough-nutting and short faring.

The email asks for an explanation for these journeys, before stating that train operators can request info from the Trainline on those they think are misusing their services, which can result in a fines or legal action. The email also writes (on a less worrying note) that "also, if we believe you are wrongly claiming for refunds, this could result in a ban of your trainline account."

I am unsure of how to proceed in this matter. I believe I am incriminating myself and causing unnecessary damage if I reply with my excuse or otherwise. It seems a little like a trap and I am thinking I may just wait to see if they follow up as this is not an official letter for an interview, nor a letter from an actual train operator.

I'd like to enquire about getting some advice on this matter, and on the difference in severity when being contacted by a train operator and a 3rd party seller.

I would really appreciate any help.

 

[MrJeeves]

If you have been doing anything they have listed, you should, first of all, stop. People regularly get reported for private prosecution, and can end up with criminal records or heavy out-of-court settlements for things like this.

If you haven't been doing anything, you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

I'm not aware of Trainline themselves reporting people to TOCs for suspected ticketing irregularities, but they might have agreements with some TOCs to do so. I would take this as a strong warning, if you have been doing these things.

If this refund was genuine, then you could just tell them such. If the refund in particular was fraudulent (you used the ticket), then I would recommend not replying to the email, ignoring it, and eating the cost of this ticket.

 

[TheOrangeSpeak]

Thank you, MrJeeves. I would really appreciate anyone else's input also.

Finally, there is the subject line of '5123125 RR1' (this is not the real number). Does anyone know if this is a case number relating to refund request for Trainline? Or something more serious?

Many thanks in advance.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Providing it was an accidental booking, you can confirm that with the Trainline.

With the other activities, unless there is other evidence or they go searching for it, there is little to progress in bringing a formal case. I'm assuming you've had no adverse interactions with railway staff?

Perhaps best to leave your Trainline account alone and move to another platform and start afresh, being very careful with the bookings you make in the future. You'll have seen from the other cases on the forum the potentially serious turns seemly innocuous fare irregularities can take, with very expensive consequences and potential for a criminal record.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I'm a little intrigued that a Trainline rep would use the term 'doughnutting' in correspondence with a member of the public / customer.

 

[TheOrangeSpeak]

Thanks, Puffing Devil. Other evidence (aside from my previous booking history) would likely relate to train and station CCTV footage. I have had no adverse interactions with railway staff.

If anyone has experience or knowledge on Trainline's reporting policies, I would be very grateful for any comments. Esp relating to if I can expect another email/letter.

Many thanks.

 

[gray1404]

If you want a fresh start on a booking platform all together I suggest you use a First Group train company booking site. Some of the other companies use trainline as their back-end system.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

If you want a fresh start on a booking platform all together I suggest you use a First Group train company booking site. Some of the other companies use trainline as their back-end system.

or even railforums.trainsplit.com?!

 

[TheOrangeSpeak]

Thanks everyone. One more additional info, the Trainline specialist lists details of the suspicious journeys at hand.

Please let me know if anyone knows if this is an indication of being reported to a train operator, a fine or an invitation to interview.

 

[Hadders]

Normally train companies request details a persons of ticket purchasing history from companies like Trainline. This normally happens after someone has been caught with an invalid ticket.

This is the first time we've heard of it potentially happening the other way round, i.e. Trainline identifying suspicious activity on a customers account and then possibly informing the train company. Legally I don't think there's anything stopping Trainline from doing this, GDPR generally allows data to be shared for prevetion of crime, and there will likely be data sharing arrangements in place between Trainline and the train companies.

In terms of what happens next I think it will depend on what level of potential fare evasion we're talking about. You might well find you get invited to an interview with an investigator from a train company to explain what has happened. It would probably only get to that stage if the level of evasion was over a prolonged period of time. Can you give us an indication of how many journeys they have listed and over what timescale.

It would be good to see the exact wording of the email you've been sent. Are you able to upload it with personal details redacted.

 

[yorkie]

Please let me know if anyone knows if this is an indication of being reported to a train operator, a fine or an invitation to interview.

It could just be Trainline carrying out their own investigations, but I don't think there is any way any of us can be sure.

It is totally understandable that Trainline will be keen to avoid fraud being committed on their platform as it will be a headache for them when they get contacted by TOCs. Also requesting refunds of tickets costs effectively retailers money (even when done legitimately). Margins for retailers are relatively small, so problematic customers will incur a loss for retailers.

Algorithms can easily flag up suspicious activity for humans to review. It really is unwise for anyone to do this.

I've heard some 'interesting' stories from people in the industry regarding fraudulent refund and delay repay requests. It is a really bad idea to engage in such activity.

 

[gray1404]

Can I suggest that you posted a copy of the email you have received from Trainline with the case reference number and your name retracted and we can have a proper look at this and advise accordingly...

 

[TheOrangeSpeak]

Here is the email with personal details redacted. It appears fairly in-depth

Removing the email in interest of maintaining anonymity in the scenario that this case progresses.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd be getting a solicitor if I were you, this one's going to get very expensive and could even involve the police if the company suspects fraud. Don't reply to their email until you have taken legal advice.

 

[TheOrangeSpeak]

To be clear, the journeys they are talking about amount to around 3 at the end of last year. Has there been many instances of Trainline taking action?

 

[AlterEgo]

To be clear, the journeys they are talking about amount to around 3+ at the end of last year. Has there been many instances of Trainline taking action?

Trainline will not take action beyond closing your account - but they do share data with train companies which can lead to a private prosecution, or, if the police become involved, an investigation for fraud. Greater Anglia conducted a large scale delay repay fraud investigation a couple of years back which involved the police.

My advice is to get a solicitor and not correspond with the company until you have received legal advice. You will need to be honest and open with your solicitor about the nature of what, if anything, you have done in order to receive the best advice.

 

[TheOrangeSpeak]

Understood. Thank you. From what you are saying, not responding to the email (as it is not an official interview request or correspondence from an operator) and eating up the cost of the refund request is not an option?

Noted on the Greater Anglia example, is there any risk of Trainline reporting individuals to operators themselves? Has anyone seen this happen?

The language used, “operators can request info on individuals” indicates that Trainline may not report themselves.

 

[AlterEgo]

Understood. Thank you. From what you are saying, not responding to the email (as it is not an official interview request or correspondence from an operator) and eating up the cost of the refund request is not an option?

You should take legal advice before making any response. Do not respond until you do.

Noted on the Greater Anglia example, is there any risk of Trainline reporting individuals to operators themselves? Has anyone seen this happen?

We have not seen a case on this forum yet where we are aware the intelligence came from Trainline themselves. But, it is possible they liaise with train companies to catch people who have patterns of short-faring. We wouldn't know. People only come here if they're dealing directly with the train company themselves, too - if, let's say, a person gets arrested for fraud, they'll be provided with a solicitor at the police station who will give specific and qualified advice, rendering a rail forum's advice superfluous.

The language used, “operators can request info on individuals” indicates that Trainline may not report themselves.

There is no reason why they wouldn't pass your travel history on to either the train companies, or the police, if there is suspected fraudulent activity.
.
I really would not play such a risky game if I were you. You are not smart enough to play it. This sort of entry-level scam is easy to detect.

 

[TheOrangeSpeak]

You should take legal advice before making any response. Do not respond until you do.


We have not seen a case on this forum yet where we are aware the intelligence came from Trainline themselves. But, it is possible they liaise with train companies to catch people who have patterns of short-faring. We wouldn't know. People only come here if they're dealing directly with the train company themselves, too - if, let's say, a person gets arrested for fraud, they'll be provided with a solicitor at the police station who will give specific and qualified advice, rendering a rail forum's advice superfluous.


There is no reason why they wouldn't pass your travel history on to either the train companies, or the police, if there is suspected fraudulent activity.
.
I really would not play such a risky game if I were you. You are not smart enough to play it. This sort of entry-level scam is easy to detect.

The number is not my real case number. But thank you for the stern advice. I will seek out help

If anyone else has knowledge i’d be very grateful to hear

 

[gray1404]

Unless the OP is a bit more open with us then I don't see how any useful advice can be given. I would strongly encourage them NOT to reply to the email they have received AND do NOT request any further refunds.

 

[Haywain]

I really would not play such a risky game if I were you. You are not smart enough to play it. This sort of entry-level scam is easy to detect.

And don't be daft enough to try the same thing on another website or app.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Noted on the Greater Anglia example, is there any risk of Trainline reporting individuals to operators themselves? Has anyone seen this happen?

The language used, “operators can request info on individuals” indicates that Trainline may not report themselves.

Quick telephone call:

John from Trainline: "Hi, Jane, I've got something that might interest you..."
Jane from TOC: "Oh, thanks John"
John from Trainline: "Yeah, it's TheOrangeSpeak... you might want to send us a request for information about him."
Jane from TOC: "Thanks John, will do!"

... and in comes the request.

 

[UserM]

And don't be daft enough to try the same thing on another website or app.

Indeed I can only second that. Trainline will share your details with other TOC’s as well as potentially other individual ticket sellers - such as trainsplit - simply doing the same thing again even with a different email address or payment card or combination of the above, from a different ticket seller. Will almost certainly result in the information being shared and linked. The way in which they can track you and link you to such information is much more advanced than you seem to think.

As harsh as this may sound, you seem to think that you can evade this, the fact is you can’t. You are very easy to track by these companies, as mentioned above the forum has seen this done a massive scale by greater anglia for delay repay.

I can only echo @AlterEgo above. Do not respond, do not make any more purchases with Trainline. Most importantly seek legal advice from a solicitor, one specialising in criminal defence will be good. Then follow their advice to the letter

 

[Haywain]

do not make any more purchases with Trainline.

If tickets are purchased and used properly, there won't be a problem.

 

[dosxuk]

Here is the email with personal details redacted. It appears fairly in-depth

I have redacted dates but the email details journeys made between november and december.

I take three pieces of information from this email that may be important - firstly that it is your actions that have made them become aware of your booking activity - this isn't some automated scan which is being mass mailed out, staff are actively looking into your booking history; secondly, they have a clear record of your booking behaviour, including tracking which specific trains you have travelled on; and finally - they have linked this account to at least one other Trainline account which they believe belongs to you and exhibits similar booking behaviour.

Obviously only you know how accurate their deductions are, and the extent of them; but if there's any real substance to their accusation, I will echo the other posters suggesting getting legal advice as this could get very serious very quickly.

 

[Haywain]

staff are actively looking into your booking history

No, they are looking at the history of requesting refunds and that is, initially at least, easily automated. There is very little reason for Trainline to be interested in what their customers are booking until they start asking for refunds. What then raises suspicion is the volume of refund requests and the timing of them. That has then drawn them to look at the booking history to build a pattern of behaviour.

 

[Hadders]

I agree that you should take legal advice before replying to this. It is has the potential to be a very serious matter if Trainline and the Train Companies were to join the dots.

It would be naive to think that Trainline and the train companies don’t work together on preventing fare evasion and fraud.

 

[SuspectUsual]

No, they are looking at the history of requesting refunds and that is, initially at least, easily automated

My first thought was to wonder if they’ve written some sort of script that searches for discontinuous bookings by the same account on the same day (or even same train) and have taken it from there. It doesn’t feel to me that something like that would be terribly difficult to do - as I used to say to a mate who writes queries for a warehouse management system “it’s only data”

 

[jeremyjh]

Their explanation of the cause of their concern seems pretty comprehensive. Do you dispute what they are saying?

If not, it would appear that you've been treating tickets as a means to open barriers/placate staff, rather than as a means of paying for your travel.

It'll make a difference how many occasions of obvious suspicious behaviour Trainline can see. If the revenue loss at this stage is small, it seems far more likely they'll simply block your account and blacklist your payment card/billing address, as their main priority will be stopping further such behaviour on their platform, and the biggest deal for them is probably that you seek refunds for almost everything you buy. But you cannot depend on them behaving as I suspect they will: you could easily be in bigger trouble.

The most important advice is simple and you don't need a solicitor to work it out. You must pay for the journeys you make. There are some clever (and legitimate) tricks on some journeys, but you need to hold ticket(s) valid for the entire journey you make. Don't try to get refunds for journeys that you have made, whether or not the ticket has been activated, scanned or used at a barrier.

Take legal advice before saying anything further to Trainline. Forget any refund you might be seeking, and I'd suggest that despite differing opinions above, you don't buy further tickets from them. This is because any claim for a refund or other human interaction with them, however legitimate, is likely to set off the same triggers that led to the email above.

Not travelling without a valid ticket, while always the right thing to do, is especially important now, since you know that a request from a train operating company to Trainline would throw up some uncomfortable data. What might otherwise be seen as a minor ticketing matter by a train operating company that bumped into you could easily escalate once they saw your purchase history. As others have noted, automating tools to find the sort of behaviour Trainline are alleging is, although not trivial, also not especially difficult.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2023 ==

My first thought was to wonder if they’ve written some sort of script that searches for discontinuous bookings by the same account on the same day (or even same train) and have taken it from there. It doesn’t feel to me that something like that would be terribly difficult to do - as I used to say to a mate who writes queries for a warehouse management system “it’s only data”

In this case, I'd not be at all surprised if it was simply that almost everything ever purchased on the account had been refunded, and that was enough for a human to take a look.

 

[dosxuk]

No, they are looking at the history of requesting refunds and that is, initially at least, easily automated. There is very little reason for Trainline to be interested in what their customers are booking until they start asking for refunds. What then raises suspicion is the volume of refund requests and the timing of them. That has then drawn them to look at the booking history to build a pattern of behaviour.

My point was that this isn't some automated script looking for a chain of suspicious transactions that has spat out an email towards the OP, that could simply be ignored as it's just a line in an excel report which might never be acted upon.

It's the OPs actions of requesting one too many refunds has caused the automation to flag it to staff and those staff have then begun investigating the whole account and it's links to other accounts. It's not just a line in a report now, this specific case is already on an actual person's desk to look into, and simply ignoring it and hoping it all goes away is a lot less likely to happen.