Elsenham/Stansted

[hatty213]

hi...ltl but now i need ur help too!

i can't believe this hasnt been answered already so sorry if its duplication...

am i right in thinking a ticket from london or tottenham hale to elsenham is valid via stansted airport? having looked at the routeing maps theres nothing to say its not but somehow it seems just too good to be true £11.70 tottenham-stansted or £7.60 to elsenham! (with senior card)
is this true at all times or does there have to be a reasonable connection involved? such as early sunday morning when not much moves.

and are there barriers at stansted? theres prob no inspectors there then but i dont want a delay at that time of the mornin if i can help it

 

[transportphoto]

I havent looked at the maps yet but as Stansted GRP is an associated routing point for Elseham (Essex) then so far yes.

BUT - as from Stansted Air you can't then complete your journey (without doubling back between Audley End and Elsenham) as the first stop on XC is Audley End this renders your ticket invalid via [stn]SSD[/stn] however it is valid only via Mountfitchet.

However this could save you money...

Buy a ticket to Audley End -

Traveling Monday to Friday:

Leave London Liverpool Street after 0930 Off-Peak Day SGL at £15.50
Leave London Liverpool Street ANYTIME Anytime Day SGL at £16.80

Travelling Saturday, Sunday or on a Bank Holiday

Leave London Liverpool Street ANTIME Super Off-Peak Return at £13.80.

All of the Above are Valid via [stn]SSD[/stn]

HTH

 

[jopsuk]

You're looking to get a cheap ticket to Stansted I take it? As said, double back involved for Elsenham. whilst it's a valid route to Audley End
A: that doesn't seem to save money?
B: it isn't a logical route, as journey time is longer than getting a direct service.
No automatic barriers, but I'd assume it is possible that they can do manual ticket checks there (never seen it though)

 

[Paul Kelly]

The last couple of times I've been at Stansted there have been manual ticket checks at the bottom of the ramp that goes up to the check-in area. Don't know though about any checks at the other end of the station where the ticket office is; I never go down that way.

 

[A60K]

You're looking to get a cheap ticket to Stansted I take it? As said, double back involved for Elsenham. whilst it's a valid route to Audley End
A: that doesn't seem to save money?
B: it isn't a logical route, as journey time is longer than getting a direct service.

With point A you can save quite a bit of money by not getting a ticket to Stansted Airport itself - the range of tickets on London to/from Stansted is restricted, so you don't have all the ticket types available. Think it might work the other way - buying a ticket from Stansted to somewhere other than London, but haven't checked.
With point B the Routeing Guide says nothing about logic and longer journey times - if it's a valid route according to the RG then you can do it. London to Wick would be quickest going London KX - Edinburgh - Inverness - Wick, but there's nothing to stop you going London Liverpool Street - Stansted - Cambridge - Peterborough - Leeds - Carlisle - Kilmarnock - Glasgow - Aberdeen - Inverness - Wick if you prefer.

 

[OwlMan]

I havent looked at the maps yet but as Stansted GRP is an associated routing point for Elseham (Essex) then so far yes.

BUT - as from Stansted Air you can't then complete your journey (without doubling back between Audley End and Elsenham) as the first stop on XC is Audley End this renders your ticket invalid via [stn]SSD[/stn] however it is valid only via Mountfitchet.

But im my opinion the ticket is valid as Stansted Airpoet & Stanstead Mountfitchet are the only members of the Stansted Group. This means that it is valid to travel from London etc to Stanstea Airport, and then double back to Stansted Mountfitchet and then on to Elsenham.
Therefore the Elsenham ticket can be used to stop short at Stansted Airport (there are no restrictions on break of journey)

Although the single fare from Stanstead Airport is greater than from Elsenham the fare from Stanstead Mounutfitchet is the same - this makes Stansted Group a valid routeing point in my opinion..


Peter.

 

[yorkie]

BUT - as from Stansted Air you can't then complete your journey (without doubling back between Audley End and Elsenham) as the first stop on XC is Audley End this renders your ticket invalid via [stn]SSD[/stn] however it is valid only via Mountfitchet.

Why do you say that?! Are you saying that a ticket from London to Leicester is not valid via Corby on days when there is no Corby-Melton Mowbray service? We have concluded several times that you do not need to 'complete' your journey, or be able to 'complete' your jouney, this exact issue was debated for Corby, and also for Grand Central we conclude a GC only to York is valid to Doncaster. You don't have to be able to 'complete' the journey - why do you think that? You are also permitted to make your own way between points on valid maps, for example you can walk from Hertford North to Herford East, or you could cycle from Corby to Melton Mowbray, or you could get a lift from Donny to York. You could get a ticket from Church Fenton to York and use it on the 0808 from Ulleskelf (this does not call at Church Fenton and there is no way to get from CHF to ULL before that train) and it would be perfectly valid. I could give many more examples.

I don't understand where this need to complete the journey comes from.

 

[embers25]

Maybe I'm wrong here but my understanding of the routing guide is that London to Audley End (or any station between from Elsenham to Shelford) is not valid via Stansted Airport as Stansted Airport and Cambridge would be the routing points and given the fares are higher to both Stansted Airport and Cambridge that makes both invalid routing points thus meaning maps don't apply and we have to revert to shortest route. Also because the diversion via the Aiport is more than 3 miles extra than the direct (shortest) route (note this diversion is not considered doubling back) that means that only the direct (shortest) route through Mountfichet is valid.

For trips to Cambridge or Waterbeach from London however, trains via Stansted Airport are valid as for this trip Cambridge and London are the routing points and so the route options revert back to using maps making Liv St-Cambridge direct or via the Airport valid as as both are mapped. This is worth noting as from many places further afield Cambridge/Waterbeach fares are less than Stansted Airport ones. Certainly the XC guards I have encountered seem to agree with this too.

 

[John @ home]

Maybe I'm wrong here but my understanding of the routing guide is that London to Audley End (or any station between from Elsenham to Shelford) is not valid via Stansted Airport as Stansted Airport and Cambridge would be the routing points and given the fares are higher to both Stansted Airport and Cambridge that makes both invalid routing points thus meaning maps don't apply and we have to revert to shortest route.

I don't agree.

The Routeing Point Identifier shows that the RPs for Audley End are Cambridge and Stansted Group.

The table of Group Stations shows that Stansted Group comprises Stansted Mountfitchet and Stansted Airport.

Performing the Fares Check for an Audley End - London journey gives:

Audley End - London: CDS £15.50, SDS £16.80.

Cambridge - London: no CDS fare, SDS £19.10.
So Cambridge is not an appropriate RP for this journey.

Stansted Mountfitchet - London: no CDS fare, SDS £13.30.
Stansted Airport - London: no CDS or SDS fare, SOS £19.80.
So Stansted Group is an appropriate RP for this journey.

The Permitted Route Identifier shows that permitted routes for an Audley End - London journey, using RPs Stansted Group and London Group, are on map ST.

Map ST shows 4 permitted routes:

• (Audley End) - Stansted Group - Edmonton Green - Tottenham Hale - Hackney - London Liverpool Street
• (Audley End) - Stansted Group - (avoiding Edmonton Green) - Tottenham Hale - Hackney - London Liverpool Street
• (Audley End) - Stansted Group - Edmonton Green - Tottenham Hale - Stratford London - London Liverpool Street
• (Audley End) - Stansted Group - (avoiding Edmonton Green) - Tottenham Hale - Stratford London - London Liverpool Street

The Routeing Guide instructions allow travel via any station within Stansted Group, including doubling back.

GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

 

[yorkie]

Maybe I'm wrong here but my understanding of the routing guide is that London to Audley End (or any station between from Elsenham to Shelford) is not valid via Stansted Airport as Stansted Airport and Cambridge would be the routing points and given the fares are higher to both Stansted Airport and Cambridge that makes both invalid routing points thus meaning maps don't apply and we have to revert to shortest route.

Stansted Airport is not a Routeing Point. Stansted Group is a Routeing Point, and is appropriate for Elsenham in this case, for the reasons provided by both collybs and John @ home.

 

[embers25]

Fair enough. I realise Stansted Group is a bit of a quirk due to the big difference between fares to Mountfichet and Airport...maybe not from London but certainly from many places. Whilst I agree your argument is indeed sound and correct NXEA disagree and made me disembark at Bishops Stortford several times. The one time I got through the barrier staff at Airport were very unimpressed. I do however agree that this is more due to NXEA staff not knowing or applying the rules correctly and the route would be valid. Out of curiousity if there was an SDS to Airport and it was more than Audley End then would the this higher fare trump the fact that Mountfichet fares are lower and therefore invalidate the route?

 

[yorkie]

It is a simple fact is that the appropriate routeing point for Elsenham, for an Elsenham to London ticket, is Stansted Group. (The only ways this could cease to be the case is either if the group were abolished, or the fare from London to Mountfitchet be increased to a level higher than to Elsenham (!!) which would leave Elsenham with no appropriate routeing point for that ticket... I am unsure what the implications of that would be...)

How did they make you disembark? Did they escort you off the train? I'd ask them some basic questions to determine their knowledge. (ie, are you familiar with the Routeing Guide? Do you deny Stansted Group is an appopriate Routeing Point for Elsenham for the ticket I hold? etc) I would note their answers for later use, and use their lack of knowledge as justification for remaining on board. They will probably not even be aware of the RG, let alone know how to apply it. Some revenue staff possibly don't have a high enough IQ to understand it (and that's being honest, not insulting).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To go back to an earlier post...

You're looking to get a cheap ticket to Stansted I take it? As said, double back involved for Elsenham.

While the double-back from Audley End to Elsenham isn't permitted, there is no compulsion to complete your journey, and in any case the journey can be completed with a double-back between Stansted Mountfitchet and Stansted Airport, which is permitted.

B: it isn't a logical route, as journey time is longer than getting a direct service.

Many routes that are permitted may not be logical. They remain permitted routes, and what matters is whether a route is permitted or not. It is irrelevant if it is logical or not.

No automatic barriers, but I'd assume it is possible that they can do manual ticket checks there (never seen it though)

They can check all they want; it's valid. I don't expect them all to have the mental capacity to work out that it's valid though, so I would be prepared to argue with them. Wouldn't be the first time I've had to argue with barrier drones who make up their own rules, but I never lose.

 

[DJ737]

Hi there

This thread goes a long way to explaining why a Stansted Airport-Elsenham (changing at Stansted Mountfitchet) single is cheaper than a Stansted Airport to Stansted Mountfichet single. :roll:

Cheers
DJ737

 

[yorkie]

There's very little logic to rail fares!

 

[Paul Kelly]

National Rail Enquiries shows the £15.50 off-peak day single from Audley End to Liverpool Street as valid via Stansted Airport, so with a print-out of that I'd guess you'd be very well armed for any arguments. (Not doubting that Elsenham is also valid, just that this one is easier to argue...) East Coast journey planner also shows Elsenham as valid on the cheap fare but all the trains it shows for it are doubling back via Bishops Stortford; clearly wrong.

Actually the National Rail Enquiries planner also shows the £13.30 any time day single Elsenham to London Terminals as valid via Stansted Airport, with doubling back between there and Stansted Mountfitchet (allowed within a routing group, as I understand it from the comments above). The routing guide implementation in the National Rail journey planner seems reasonably good! That is a 33% saving over the £19.80 fare from SSD - almost like having a railcard - I will definitely try that next time I fly into Stansted.

 

[doubletrackemble]

So an Audley End - London tkt is definitely fully valid from Stansted Airport (has anyone tried using one)? Is there no issue related to break of journey i.e. is it OK to start your journey from Stansted Airport?

 

[Paul Kelly]

National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Section 16, 1st paragraph, 1st line:

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use.

Seems clear enough