ELL Platform extensions

[maniacmartin]

There may already be a thread on this. If so, my apologies for starting another.

I received this letter from TfL regarding platform extensions at Surrey Quays that may interest somebody: (apologies for the poor scan)

 

[bicbasher]

Thanks manicmartin for the info.

That explains why there's a total suspension of the ELL during Christmas week, although I wish they'd run a shuttle service between New Cross Gate and West Croydon/Crystal Palace on the 23rd, 24th and 27th to supplement the Southern services. On the 28th, only 2tph will operate on the Sydenham slow due to the engineering work at Victoria.

 

[jopsuk]

at 100m, the 5-car 378s will be 12 metres shorter than a LU S7, 6 metres less than the shortest tube stock, the Northern line six-car 1995 stock- and 35 metres more than the old 4-car A-stock.

I guess, given the amount of SDO that will be needed even with the platform extensions, that this really is the limit without seriously expensive rebuilding.

 

[mrmartin]

Is there some way to increase frequencies further in combination with this? Also interested to know if that more frequency is possible with the NLL too.

 

[swt_passenger]

They can run a couple more trains per hour on the ELL, they have always had tentative plans to run a 6 tph service to/from Crystal Palace, but the current setup makes it easier to have a regular timetable, with 4 tph to each of the 4 legs of the mini-network.

I think the basic problem as always is that the NLL is just about at capacity unless you can get rid of the freight. What currently runs on the NLL is actually more than they originally planned for, there were originally going to be short workings between Stratford and Camden Rd in the peaks, running 8 tph is a bit of a bonus...

 

[londiscape]

Is there some way to increase frequencies further in combination with this? Also interested to know if that more frequency is possible with the NLL too.

Is the southern portion of the ELL constrained by the lack of capacity on the Brighton main line - as they share the same tracks south of New Cross Gate?

 

[neilm]

Not at all, as you have fast and slows and it is a grade separated junction at new cross gate anyway.

 

[bicbasher]

I think the only capacity issue south of New Cross Gate is between Norwood Junction and West Croydon which is why the increase in capacity was planned for the Crystal Palace spur rather than Croydon. Yet the CP service serves the busier stations on that section of the ELL.

 

[simple simon]

and here is a mystery...

All the original stations on the East London Line were originally able to accept 6 carriage trains, albeit perhaps at a pinch - and therefore I would not have expected any of them to need any platform lengthening works. Just barriers moving to re-open sealed off sections of platform.

Certainly the then Surrey Docks station would have been able to do so - because it was served by the through Metropolitan Railway trains which ran to / from Hammersmith via the northern side of the Circle Line and Shepherds Bush.

Does anyone know whats happening at Canada Water, the 1990's station that in a disastrous act of short term money pinching folly* was built with short platforms that can only accept 4 carriage trains?

Simon

*(a folly which has come back to bite the purse string holders with a vengance - albeit perhaps not the same individuals who made the bad decisions)

 

[swt_passenger]

and here is a mystery...

All the original stations on the East London Line were originally able to accept 6 carriage trains, albeit perhaps at a pinch - and therefore I would not have expected any of them to need any platform lengthening works. Just barriers moving to re-open sealed off sections of platform.

There's a significant difference between the length of 6 carriage underground trains of the time - they'd be much shorter individual carriages than the 20m 378s, more like 15m on average. So any 6 car trains would have only been around 90m long.

Even now the difference in lengths is such that a 5 car 378 at 100m will be almost as long as some LU stuff, for instance an S7 on the H&C or Circle is only about 110m.

 

[bicbasher]

I'm not too sure about which end of the platforms will be extended at Canada Water, although I suspect the doors will open on all 5 cars, the unit itself will partially remain in the tunnel.

Whitechapel will use SDO for the moment as the platform extension work will come under the Crossrail contract.

 

[joeykins82]

Apparently Canada Water will be SDO (Source: London Reconnections)

Perhaps crucially, thanks to the short-sightedness of the Jubilee Line Extension planners (or rather their accountants), one of the stations where SDO would be required is Canada Water.

 

[bicbasher]

The map and article from 2011 pre-dates the annoucement that Canada Water would have it's platforms extended.

 

[swt_passenger]

The map and article from 2011 pre-dates the annoucement that Canada Water would have it's platforms extended.

That's right, a number of stations are being extended that were assumed impossible only two years ago, only Rotherhithe is not mentioned in TfL's latest list:

Works to extend platforms will take place at the following stations on the East London route: Highbury & Islington, Canonbury, Hoxton, Haggerston, Dalston Junction, Shoreditch, Shadwell, Wapping, Canada Water and Surrey Quays on the east London route...

From: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/28399.aspx

 

[bicbasher]

That's right, a number of stations are being extended that were assumed impossible only two years ago, only Rotherhithe is not mentioned in TfL's latest list:

I'd assume Wapping is now being extended at the Shadwell end because of the Thames Tunnel which is listed.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's a thread about this subject in the District Dave forum, and a poster there reckons that although the leading cab at Canada Water will be just into the tunnel, all the passenger doors will be able to open.

Previously I think it was reported that a single set of doors at each end might be 'SDOd' out of use there. Descriptions of what is planned seem to change every few months...

 

[maniacmartin]

If I had my way they'd just close Rotherhithe. It's not well used (much less than Surrey Quays from my observations), it hasn't got escalators and its very close to Canada Water. Perhaps it was only kept open to appease local residents when Canada Water was built. All it seems to achieve is making the ELL slower

 

[bicbasher]

If I had my way they'd just close Rotherhithe. It's not well used (much less than Surrey Quays from my observations), it hasn't got escalators and its very close to Canada Water. Perhaps it was only kept open to appease local residents when Canada Water was built. All it seems to achieve is making the ELL slower

I believe it was one of Ken Livingstone's commitments to keep Rotherhithe open as it and Wapping were at threat of closure when the ELL converted to NR standards. Wikipedia has passenger levels lower than when it was part of London Underground.

Incidentally when I was on the ELL on Monday evening during the peak, a fair few got off at Rotherhithe which was a rarity. Ironically when I used to have a girlfriend who lived near the station, I used it regularly in the days when the only way to get there quickly was the old tube line, although Canada Water is also within walking distance of her old flat.

 

[cle]

I'm going to the Norwegian Christmas market on Sat - will have a look. There is a huge amount of development planned for that area but it is more around Canada Water.

Rotherhithe is a bit niche, but then again so is Wapping - I quite like the density of stations, gives it a Paris metro feel. It's supposed to be a local service, not a fast one.