Elizabeth Line to Stansted?

[fandroid]

Do they? If I read 'I lead them along the road' I would take it as the present tense.

So would I, but I'm now often seeing written sentences like "I have lead them up the garden path" in major newspapers.

 

[dosxuk]

How many people actually make inter-airport transfers around London? Especially from Stansted and Luton which are overwhelmingly served by point-to-point low-cost carriers who tend not to fuss about connections. I can understand a few City Airport-Heathrow transfers but even that will be a limited market.

There was a limited market for transfers between Gatwick and Heathrow, which was adequately provisioned using the existing bus/taxi/train options. It would be literally a handful of passengers a day, not even enough to fill a single coach. However, since COVID and BA in particular focusing more on Heathrow than Gatwick, that market has shrunk even more.

There is also a tiny market for transfers between City and Heathrow, although that is often disruption lead - City airport being more susceptible to weather disruption than Heathrow, and the ease for BA to move passengers to Heathrow to get them to their destination.

There is next to no transfer market between any of the other London airports. While there are definitely some passengers who make those journeys, it's so few and far between to basically be unmeasurable.

 

[Bald Rick]

There was a limited market for transfers between Gatwick and Heathrow, which was adequately provisioned using the existing bus/taxi/train options. It would be literally a handful of passengers a day, not even enough to fill a single coach. However, since COVID and BA in particular focusing more on Heathrow than Gatwick, that market has shrunk even more.

There is also a tiny market for transfers between City and Heathrow, although that is often disruption lead - City airport being more susceptible to weather disruption than Heathrow, and the ease for BA to move passengers to Heathrow to get them to their destination.

There is next to no transfer market between any of the other London airports. While there are definitely some passengers who make those journeys, it's so few and far between to basically be unmeasurable.

by far the biggest segment of people travelling between London airports is airline staff.

 

[Basil Jet]

So would I, but I'm now often seeing written sentences like "I have lead them up the garden path" in major newspapers.

Do you also see "He has mislead them"?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Having a direct connection every 15 minutes to Stanstead Airport and a direct rail connection between Stanstead and Heathrow would be an obvious major benefit.

Hardly any airline goes to both Heathrow and Stansted and certainly not to many destinations where it would be sensible changing in London to get between.

 

[Silenos]

In any case, if you were going to do all the expensive work to improve rail access to Stansted, given the already frequent services to LST wouldn't it actually be better to boost the connections towards Cambridge and Norwich, to encourage more usage from that direction?

 

[cle]

I would actually move to decrease Stansted to 3tph (all calling Harlow and BS, one SM) - and add the third Cambridge service in it's place, a faster pattern which could be more competitive for London journeys (and become the prime service for 'South')

3tph Stan Ex feels reasonable. It's not a super busy airport these days, and the cheapo cheapo flights all depart at like 5/6am. That path through the single tunnel should be used elsewhere of course - perhaps another service to Cambridge North/Norwich if pathable. Or a slower pattern extended from somewhere, like the Stratford-BS services.

 

[dk1]

I would actually move to decrease Stansted to 3tph (all calling Harlow and BS, one SM) - and add the third Cambridge service in it's place, a faster pattern which could be more competitive for London journeys (and become the prime service for 'South')

3tph Stan Ex feels reasonable. It's not a super busy airport these days, and the cheapo cheapo flights all depart at like 5/6am. That path through the single tunnel should be used elsewhere of course - perhaps another service to Cambridge North/Norwich if pathable. Or a slower pattern extended from somewhere, like the Stratford-BS services.

I’m not sure what you mean by not being busy these days. The airport passenger numbers are growing rapidly again reaching 93% of pre-Covid in December. There were tentative plans for a third faster service from Cambridge to Liverpool St when Abellio won the then rail franchise but that appears to have been dropped. Kings Cross & Thameslink are the prime choice for most London journeys from Cambridge. The Stansted Express services I witness daily are becoming very busy indeed, infact a 4tph frequency returns for part of the day (SX) from May. Loadings on the additional Cambridge would nowhere near match what the airport can instead. Rail use at the airport peaked at 9.7m in 2018/2019 before the pandemic hit & was heading for 4m last year with all that worldwide travel disruption. The sky is the limit I would’ve thought for that route again now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

A 20 minute pattern does not interact well with other service frequencies along the WAML.

 

[zwk500]

I would actually move to decrease Stansted to 3tph (all calling Harlow and BS, one SM) - and add the third Cambridge service in it's place, a faster pattern which could be more competitive for London journeys (and become the prime service for 'South')

3tph Stan Ex feels reasonable. It's not a super busy airport these days, and the cheapo cheapo flights all depart at like 5/6am. That path through the single tunnel should be used elsewhere of course - perhaps another service to Cambridge North/Norwich if pathable. Or a slower pattern extended from somewhere, like the Stratford-BS services.

The only issue with 3tph is it makes it quite awkward to work with 2tph services, as you can't match them up neatly at conflict points. Far from unsolvable, but a little gremlin to deal with nonetheless

 

[dk1]

The only issue with 3tph is it makes it quite awkward to work with 2tph services, as you can't match them up neatly at conflict points. Far from unsolvable, but a little gremlin to deal with nonetheless

Totally this. Unless it’s off-pattern eg 00 - 15 - 45 for example, it’s never going to work.

 

[zwk500]

Totally this. Unless it’s off-pattern eg 00 - 15 - 45 for example, it’s never going to work.

LNR made 3tph work between Birmingham and London by running 2 of them 5 minutes apart at MK...

 

[dk1]

LNR made 3tph work between Birmingham and London by running 2 of them 5 minutes apart at MK...

Very different when you’ve got a quadruple railway to play with.

 

[zwk500]

Very different when you’ve got a quadruple railway to play with.

Tbh I can't remember the details, but once they started splitting the service at Northampton the intervals improved markedly.

 

[Bald Rick]

Very different when you’ve got a quadruple railway to play with.

not any single line sections, nor 8 other busy flat junctions to navigate in 30 odd miles.

 

[306024]

nor any single line sections, nor 8 other busy flat junctions to navigate in 30 odd miles.

And London Overground operating a clockface 15 minute interval service.

 

[zwk500]

Very different when you’ve got a quadruple railway to play with.

BTW, I was agreeing with your point. Sorry I've just realised it wasn't clear. If you're running 3tph it's basically you have to run 2 of them half-hourly and then slot the 3rd in somewhere in an extra gap. Absolute pain in the proverbial.

 

[David Goddard]

...or essentially do the peak service all day but with one rather than two fast trains off peak.

 

[Brubulus]

I’m not sure what you mean by not being busy these days. The airport passenger numbers are growing rapidly again reaching 93% of pre-Covid in December. There were tentative plans for a third faster service from Cambridge to Liverpool St when Abellio won the then rail franchise but that appears to have been dropped. Kings Cross & Thameslink are the prime choice for most London journeys from Cambridge. The Stansted Express services I witness daily are becoming very busy indeed, infact a 4tph frequency returns for part of the day (SX) from May. Loadings on the additional Cambridge would nowhere near match what the airport can instead. Rail use at the airport peaked at 9.7m in 2018/2019 before the pandemic hit & was heading for 4m last year with all that worldwide travel disruption. The sky is the limit I would’ve thought for that route again now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

A 20 minute pattern does not interact well with other service frequencies along the WAML.

It's a very well used station, but running 6tph total with 3 fasts to London, solely calling at Tottenham Hale + Harlow Town or Bishops Stortford in the peaks. 1 slow to Stratford, to provide a direct link from intermediate stations along with the Norwich and Birmingham trains each hour.
A number of WAML pathing difficulties can be solved by treating the Cambridge trains as 2 individual 1tph services instead of a 2tph service. The WAML is am extremely hard line to parh for simply due to the hugely varied stopping pattern and lack of 4 track sections.

 

[dk1]

BTW, I was agreeing with your point. Sorry I've just realised it wasn't clear. If you're running 3tph it's basically you have to run 2 of them half-hourly and then slot the 3rd in somewhere in an extra gap. Absolute pain in the proverbial.

Yes mate, not an ideal timetabling scenario.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2023 ==

It's a very well used station, but running 6tph total with 3 fasts to London, solely calling at Tottenham Hale + Harlow Town or Bishops Stortford in the peaks. 1 slow to Stratford, to provide a direct link from intermediate stations along with the Norwich and Birmingham trains each hour.
A number of WAML pathing difficulties can be solved by treating the Cambridge trains as 2 individual 1tph services instead of a 2tph service. The WAML is am extremely hard line to parh for simply due to the hugely varied stopping pattern and lack of 4 track sections.

And the reason everything snarls north of Cheshunt when any disruption occurs.

 

[Magdalia]

I have used the Liverpool Street-Cambridge line for more than half a century. In the early years of that period the peak hour services have operated on a 20 minute cycle and a 24 minute cycle. But I think it has always been a 30 minute cycle since the Airport branch opened.

First thing to say is that Stansted is totally unsuited to an Elizabeth Line style metro operation. It is about 37 miles from London, further out than both Luton and Gatwick and more than twice the distance than Heathrow.

But the Liverpool Street-Cambridge line and branches are relatively self contained. If they could be operated more effectively, given the many constraints, with a 20 minute cycle, then that should not be ruled out completely. But everything would have to be on the 20 minute cycle, including Overground.

At the London end, the Liverpool Street-Cambridge line and branches only interact with the outside world via a few peak hour and start/end of day ecs moves. These could be reduced further if GA was allowed back into Chingford, though Chingford would be no use for 10 car class 720s!

The big problem would be at the Cambridge end, where the Kings Cross line services would still be on a 30 minute cycle. But by judicious selection of stopping patterns north of Bishops Stortford, it wouldn't be impossible to convert a 20 minute interval service at Bishops Stortford into a 30 minute interval service at Cambridge. This might actually be better than what we have now, where the Liverpool Street trains don't follow the 30 minute cycle at Cambridge for much of the day.

 

[cle]

If a 20 min pattern isn't workable, that is ok. Keep paired by pattern. So 4tph including the Stratford.

The 3tph could become 2tph fast and a 1tph slow which was paired with the slow Stratford. Would increase the spread of stations with 2tph access to Stansted. Not everyone comes fast from Liv St and Tottenham.

Assumption of both calling Harlow and BS, and maybe both Slows take Mountfitchet.

And then a 2tph Cambridge, and then a random 1tph off pattern, which could be the fastest or the slowest pattern.

 

[SargeNpton]

Standsted & Stanstead seem the most prolific.

The "stead" v "sted" thing happens across the country, though the former has more examples then the latter - which may explain why so many get Stansted wrong.

Having two adjacent stations as an example of each catches a few people out on the WCML: Hemel Hempstead and then Berkhamsted.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I don't get why Stansted deserves an express anyway. It's a low-cost/budget airport handling charter/no-frills-airline flights. Those that want to fly with luxurious, fast trains and ultra convenient connections can pay for a flight from Heathrow or Gatwick.

 

[Cross City]

I don't get why Stansted deserves an express anyway. It's a low-cost/budget airport handling charter/no-frills-airline flights. Those that want to fly with luxurious, fast trains and ultra convenient connections can pay for a flight from Heathrow or Gatwick.

Because it's the 4th busiest airport in the country and a lot of people want to get there?

Gatwick is rammed with low-costs too and the only BA routes of note are their high-capacity leisure routes. Does that not deserve an express service?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Because it's the 4th busiest airport in the country and a lot of people want to get there?

Gatwick is rammed with low-costs too and the only BA routes of note are their high-capacity leisure routes. Does that not deserve an express service?

I suppose you’re right, but marketing as Express in the same city as Heathrow or Gatwick Express which are more expensive (though legally the latter SHOULDN’T be) premium branded services would probably put me off taking it over a coach if I were travelling on a budget. It definitely needs a regular train service to London but I personally would run it as a standard Greater Anglia service.

 

[class68fan]

Given that the Lea Valley line and especially the single track tunnel at Stansted are essentially ‘full’ is the OP suggesting complete replacement of the Stansted Express with a much slower and less comfortable Elizabeth Line service?

Presumably this would involve thinning out the current Shenfield service (already claimed to be suffering crowding).

Stansted service is now general only 2 trains ever hour some 3 ever hour, it use be 4 ever hour so tunnel not full on today services. But no need for elizabeth line to go there, take to liverpool street and change between the lines for any who want to do the trip.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2023 ==

I don't get why Stansted deserves an express anyway. It's a low-cost/budget airport handling charter/no-frills-airline flights. Those that want to fly with luxurious, fast trains and ultra convenient connections can pay for a flight from Heathrow or Gatwick.

Express is more marketing tool than speed. Trains are general busy with both airport and normal people between different station. But it do need to be fastish between City and Airport.

 

[D365]

... but I personally would run it as a standard Greater Anglia service.

Is that not what the Stansted Express is now?

I doubt a lot of the people flying into Stansted know (or care) that Stansted is in Essex/Anglia.

 

[NSE]

I suppose you’re right, but marketing as Express in the same city as Heathrow or Gatwick Express which are more expensive (though legally the latter SHOULDN’T be) premium branded services would probably put me off taking it over a coach if I were travelling on a budget. It definitely needs a regular train service to London but I personally would run it as a standard Greater Anglia service.

It’s really not branded or treated as a luxury express as such. It’s a name simply to make the service easily identifiable. I guess it works particularly well in this case as the branch nature means there are no other services to confuse it with at LST.

 

[JonathanH]

It’s really not branded or treated as a luxury express as such. It’s a name simply to make the service easily identifiable. I guess it works particularly well in this case as the branch nature means there are no other services to confuse it with at LST.

Yes, Stansted Train or Stansted Link doesn't quite trip off the tongue as well as Stansted Express does.

 

[cle]

Is that not what the Stansted Express is now?

I doubt a lot of the people flying into Stansted know (or care) that Stansted is in Essex/Anglia.

Most of them live there, so there is that.

I do think a service which calls:
Tottenham Hale (the alt London feed, ie CJ)
Harlow/Bish (the outer/new town / home county call, ie Croydon)
Stansted M (local airport call, ie Horley)

Is more analogous and parallel in pattern with the Southern regulars to Gatwick than the Express. It’s a semi fast service which ends at the Airport.