Elizabeth line reliability issues

[800301]

How many is that? Which platforms are allocated? I assume there’s a separate plan for peak and off peak? Does the plan take into account average passenger loading?

It will be in the joint contingency plan and I’m sure there is one with Greater Anglia as well for Liverpool Street.

345’s are not cleared in to Platform 6/7 or 14 at Pad

 

[nickswift99]

Surely more about how you can’t just turf GWR out of their station because once again the Elizabeth Line has screwed up. You can’t tell someone in Cornwall that their train is cancelled because the Elizabeth Line messed up, it already happens enough.

But GWR do cape the Newbury and Didcot semi-fasts when things go wrong, freeing up at least one platform at Paddington

 

[Taunton]

Surely more about how you can’t just turf GWR out of their station because once again the Elizabeth Line has screwed up. You can’t tell someone in Cornwall that their train is cancelled because the Elizabeth Line messed up, it already happens enough.

Note my recent experience having a Liz train not turning up because of an issue several hours before with a GWR train at Weymouth. It happens both ways. Described here :

Elizabeth line reliability issues

Abbey Wood readers are supposed to be installed “this summer”. Custom House readers still doesn’t have a date. I believe the issue at Custom House only affects PAYG Oyster users. The announcement on the DLR platforms have changed to reflect this. It now says: ”Please remember to touch out with...

www.railforums.co.uk

Incidentally, Paddington is not "their station". It is run by Network Rail for all operators.

 

[Horizon22]

It will be in the joint contingency plan and I’m sure there is one with Greater Anglia as well for Liverpool Street.

345’s are not cleared in to Platform 6/7 or 14 at Pad

They are cleared in 14, however they are now too long (max 8 car for the platform). When 7-cars were still running, they could very occasionally be seen in Platform 14 before the central section opened.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2023 ==

But GWR do cape the Newbury and Didcot semi-fasts when things go wrong, freeing up at least one platform at Paddington

Sure but that's a Network Rail, all TOCs agreed contingency plan. The Elizabeth line don't need to use Paddington in such a scenario.

The reason for using Paddington / Liverpool Street is as a diversionary route away from the central section so that at least some trains can still run eastbound/westbound and passengers aren't stranded. GWR is likely to be running normally in such an instance. Paddington is generally more constrained than Liverpool Street.

 

[matt_world2004]

I wonder if the lack of turn around points and sidings in the core is also impacting reliability

 

[NSEWonderer]

There is enough turning points imo for where usual common faults happen, its just the response thats time and time again been lacking.

 

[Uzair]

There is enough turning points imo...

I guess this is somewhat subjective though. I was slightly surprised when I saw there were only 2 crossovers in the core. Just as a comparison, if we take the RER A core as Charles de Gaulle-Etoile to Nation (6 stations inclusive), there are 6 crossovers and a siding accessible from both the east and west in this section alone. I understand the increase in costs with having reversing facilities at more stations, but that's a separate discussion. Just thought that a new railway would have more reversing facilities for more resilience, but this is not me complaining!

 

[bramling]

There is enough turning points imo for where usual common faults happen, its just the response thats time and time again been lacking.

It does seem there was a bit of a blind spot with getting the operating staff fully experienced, but to some extent this is inevitable with a completely new railway. The JLE had it to some extent, its well known Neasden control room is a cautionary tale when it comes to how to establish a new railway. Things should be improving by now though, and they don’t seem to be.

 

[NSEWonderer]

The main addition ontop of reversing crossovers is that the line is bidirectional as well. There is fisher street cross over between Tottenham Court Road and Farringdon, Whitechapel's Cross over just before the station towards Liverpool street direction, Between Canary Wharf and Custom house is two cross overs and then another just after Custom house towards Woolwich then the Plumstead JN cross over the the two at Abbey Wood.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2023 ==

It does seem there was a bit of a blind spot with getting the operating staff fully experienced, but to some extent this is inevitable with a completely new railway. The JLE had it to some extent, its well known Neasden control room is a cautionary tale when it comes to how to establish a new railway. Things should be improving by now though, and they don’t seem to be.

Yeh tbh by the time Elizabeth line was out the original Crossrail personnel with experience had gone before there was a seamless transition. That was one of the big impacts of the delayed release of the Elizabeth Line. Trial and error will eventually I believe solve much of the current slow response times.

 

[Horizon22]

I guess this is somewhat subjective though. I was slightly surprised when I saw there were only 2 crossovers in the core. Just as a comparison, if we take the RER A core as Charles de Gaulle-Etoile to Nation (6 stations inclusive), there are 6 crossovers and a siding accessible from both the east and west in this section alone. I understand the increase in costs with having reversing facilities at more stations, but that's a separate discussion. Just thought that a new railway would have more reversing facilities for more resilience, but this is not me complaining!

What would probably be of huge benefit would be a crossover east of Paddington from the Eastbound line to the Westbound line to get out of trouble if need be. The only other available Westbound facing crossing is Whitechapel.

Reversing facilities on all platforms is all well and good but not if you effectively turn a huge section into single-line working.

 

[thomalex]

Severe delays again this evening due to a faulty train in the central section

 

[bramling]

The main addition ontop of reversing crossovers is that the line is bidirectional as well. There is fisher street cross over between Tottenham Court Road and Farringdon, Whitechapel's Cross over just before the station towards Liverpool street direction, Between Canary Wharf and Custom house is two cross overs and then another just after Custom house towards Woolwich then the Plumstead JN cross over the the two at Abbey Wood.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2023 ==


Yeh tbh by the time Elizabeth line was out the original Crossrail personnel with experience had gone before there was a seamless transition. That was one of the big impacts of the delayed release of the Elizabeth Line. Trial and error will eventually I believe solve much of the current slow response times.

It probably doesn’t help that salaries for both control and incident response staff are significantly lower on Crossrail compared to LU. Considering Crossrail is supposed to be the TFL flagship, this is quite odd really. It’s hardly going to attract people, and indeed it’s also likely to mean Crossrail acts as something of a transit camp as people gain the experience to move to more lucrative roles in LU.

There’s also now a significant problem with attracting suitable quality people in the London area. Low salaries aren’t going to attract nor retain higher quality people from the wider Home Counties.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Severe delays again this evening due to a faulty train in the central section

It's mainly the Shenfield units that keep failing at pad that's now 4 to 5 failed in a single day

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2023 ==

It probably doesn’t help that salaries for both control and incident response staff are significantly lower on Crossrail compared to LU. Considering Crossrail is supposed to be the TFL flagship, this is quite odd really. It’s hardly going to attract people, and indeed it’s also likely to mean Crossrail acts as something of a transit camp as people gain the experience to move to more lucrative roles in LU.

There’s also now a significant problem with attracting suitable quality people in the London area. Low salaries aren’t going to attract nor retain higher quality people from the wider Home Counties.

That is true but tbh traffic managers got a payrise not long ago about 8-13% if I remember correctly on what was 52k prior

 

[tgsh2011]

Severe delays again this evening due to a faulty train in the central section

Yes, another fiasco on the Elizabeth Line this evening. I was on 17:50 Heathrow Terminal 5 to Shenfield when we were all unceremoniously dumped at Ealing Broadway with some excuse about a train broken down near Paddington. The line is an absolute embarrassment. For many foreign visitors this is now the first experience they will have of the UK transport network. It is not even exceptional, it is now the norm.

 

[Horizon22]

The trains are noq continuously having issues around Paddington both in/out of Westbourne Park and occasionally when arriving into the central section. This wasn't happening much if at all before auto-reverse.

 

[Thirteen]

The hyperbole surrounding the Elizabeth Line and some of the issues is eye rolling.

 

[bramling]

That is true but tbh traffic managers got a payrise not long ago about 8-13% if I remember correctly on what was 52k prior

Still doesn’t compare favourably to LU, where both controllers and incident responders are on over £80k basic.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Still doesn’t compare favourably to LU, where both controllers and incident responders are on over £80k basic.

True

 

[DC1989]

Major delays on the Eastern leg again this morning due to a broken down train at gidea park

 

[NSEWonderer]

Major delays on the Eastern leg again this morning due to a broken down train at gidea park

Ah Shenfield units the bane of the line

 

[Horizon22]

Major delays on the Eastern leg again this morning due to a broken down train at gidea park

Major? Seems it was Minor Delays and other than the initial train most services everything was on the move in 20 minutes.

Big difference between a sit down on a 4-track section and a 2-track section.

But other than that, if this thread is just going to track any time one of the busiest (and overall well-performing) railways ever has any delays it will never end!

 

[DC1989]

Major? Seems it was Minor Delays and other than the initial train most services everything was on the move in 20 minutes.

Big difference between a sit down on a 4-track section and a 2-track section.

But other than that, if this thread is just going to track any time one of the busiest (and overall well-performing) railways ever has any delays it will never end!

Well I've had 'severe' delays when the service was advertised as 'good' so I'm sure there's some fiddling going on (Someones KPI's!?)

Posting each time there's a problem isn't helpful though it's certain that things are have not improved over the past 6-8 months and in fact have gotten worse. That is worth discussing.

 

[Jamiescott1]

Was a broken down train on westbound platform at TCR. After about 10 minutes it returned eastbound empty.
I only take the EL once a week and there's always an issue

 

[Horizon22]

Well I've had 'severe' delays when the service was advertised as 'good' so I'm sure there's some fiddling going on (Someones KPI's!?)

Posting each time there's a problem isn't helpful though it's certain that things are have not improved over the past 6-8 months and in fact have gotten worse. That is worth discussing.

There's agreed service status thresholds for all TfL modes. I imagine you could FOI them.

You're probably right that the performance figures will probably show a decline for the Elizabeth line for the most recent quarter (April - June 2023) when its released. Where the line will rank will be intersting, but probably still in the top 5. Elizabeth line was #1 at 85.2% Right Time in Q4 22/23.

 

[Taunton]

But other than that, if this thread is just going to track any time one of the busiest (and overall well-performing) railways ever has any delays it will never end!

Just to put this into perspective, I had a significant meeting yesterday. Monday, and with a choice of routes decided, I think for the first time, NOT to go on the Elizabeth, before even going to the platform. Having gone out of my way to use it, certainly for much of 2022, that's a notable reversal. The number of peak hour disruptions is out of all proportion to anything experienced on the Underground.

My business contact there did use it, and said the trains were fine but the platform describers were showing nonsense. They were surprised when I said that had been an issue since Christmas, and got worse with a software upgrade at Easter.

 

[setdown]

My friend was really surprised to hear I have a lot of issues with it. Then she got stuck between Whitechapel and Stratford for 20 minutes

Are there any right-time statistics available for peak time specifically?

 

[Bald Rick]

Where the line will rank will be intersting, but probably still in the top 5. Elizabeth line was #1 at 85.2% Right Time in Q4 22/23.

On Time, not Right Time dear boy . There’s a crucial difference!

 

[Benjwri]

You're probably right that the performance figures will probably show a decline for the Elizabeth line for the most recent quarter (April - June 2023) when its released. Where the line will rank will be intersting, but probably still in the top 5. Elizabeth line was #1 at 85.2% Right Time in Q4 22/23.

I wouldn’t be so sure, they didn’t do so well last month.

What is interesting though is last month their delays that ranked ‘v late or cancelled’ was above the national average. The Elizabeth Line scored 5.9%, while the national average was 4.8%. It scores better in minor delays though, which suggests it’s these train failures that are causing the issues.

Having looked more into the figures, for last month tbe Elizabeth Line’s v late and cancelled score is only beaten by the OLR operators (And not even by much for some), and Avanti, which needless to say is rather appalling.

 

[Bald Rick]

What is interesting though is last month their delays that ranked ‘v late or cancelled’ was above the national average. The Elizabeth Line scored 5.9%, while the national average was 4.8%. It scores better in minor delays though, which suggests it’s these train failures that are causing the issues.

Having looked more into the figures, for last month tbe Elizabeth Line’s v late and cancelled score is only beaten by the OLR operators (And not even by much for some), and Avanti, which needless to say is rather appalling.

And that’s because MTR have a very aggressive service recovery policy for when things go wrong, which is essentially to cancel loads to get it all back on schedule quickly. Similar to the tube. As you might expect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

I wouldn’t be so sure, they didn’t do so well last month.

I‘m certain they’ll be top 5, given that in the first three periods they were 4th, 2nd and 2nd ranked for On Time performance across all TOCs.

 

[Horizon22]

On Time, not Right Time dear boy . There’s a crucial difference!

Too many performance metrics these days!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

I wouldn’t be so sure, they didn’t do so well last month.

What is interesting though is last month their delays that ranked ‘v late or cancelled’ was above the national average. The Elizabeth Line scored 5.9%, while the national average was 4.8%. It scores better in minor delays though, which suggests it’s these train failures that are causing the issues.

Having looked more into the figures, for last month tbe Elizabeth Line’s v late and cancelled score is only beaten by the OLR operators (And not even by much for some), and Avanti, which needless to say is rather appalling.

Instead of running late, more trains are cancelled outright compared to an average TOC which skews this figure higher. That is a more standard recovery method for a metro operation.