Elgin Bus Station Future

[computerSaysNo]

Elgin's only shopping centre set to close

Elgin's only shopping centre is set to close down later this month, it has been announced.

The St Giles Centre has operated in the Moray town for 33 years.

It has been home to major stores including Argos, Waterstones and WH Smith, but has been in dispute with Moray Council over business rates.

St Giles Shopping Centre Holdings Ltd said it had now notified all tenants of the intention to close after 20 January.

The mall has faced challenges in recent years and several units were empty after a number of large retailers left, including Monsoon, Mountain Warehouse and Superdrug.

In November the local authority said it had "exhausted all reasonable avenues of support" and that there were "significant sum of arrears".

St Giles Shopping Centre Holdings Ltd said in a statement: "The company has faced severe financial challenges in recent years, with a high level of vacant units, reducing rent roll and increasing service charge costs.

"The company is disappointed at the closure, however after taking professional advice this difficult decision was the only option available."

'Unsettling news'

Moray Council said it appreciated the news would be difficult for people employed at St Giles.

"The council is aware there has been a closure notice issued to tenants of the St Giles Centre by its owners," a statement said.

"We appreciate this is sad and unsettling news for people employed there."

The council added: "We currently have one vacant property on Elgin High Street available to traders, who are welcome to find out if it's suitable for them.

"There are also a number of organisations available locally to assist with relocation or other employment opportunities should businesses need it."

Councillor Marc Macrae, chairman of the economic development and infrastructure services committee, described it as "very disappointing" news, given "efforts over considerable time to try and assist the centre through difficult times".

He added: "Thoughts are with the many staff of the centre and the retailers who have had this news sprung upon them so soon after the festive holidays."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77j78gnv0go
Is the bus station in Elgin a part of the shopping centre? If so then it looks like it may be unavailable from the 20th of January.

 

[Volvodart]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77j78gnv0go
Is the bus station in Elgin a part of the shopping centre? If so then it looks like it may be unavailable from the 20th of January.

The bus station is owned by Moray Council and leased to Stagecoach.

 

[GusB]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77j78gnv0go
Is the bus station in Elgin a part of the shopping centre? If so then it looks like it may be unavailable from the 20th of January.

Access to the bus station isn't dependent on the shopping centre being open. The drivers' room and waiting room (if it's actually open) are accessed from the bus station concourse.

There is the issue of toilet facilities, though. They're located on the lower level of the shopping centre and won't be available if it's shut. I dare say that it would be quite easy to maintain a corridor from the lower level exit to the toilets and block off the rest of the centre (they're on the same side of the building) but it would still require heating and lighting, along with security and cleaners etc.; the question of who pays for it would come into play. It would seem that Moray Council's decision to close and sell off the toilet block on North Street was quite short-sighted after all, but that's another subject entirely!

The other issue is accessibility - there will be no lift access to the High Street and people with mobility issues will have to exit at the North Street end. There are dropped kerbs, but I appreciate that it's not going to be as easy.

 

[Highland050261]

The bus station is owned by Moray Council and leased to Stagecoach.

Bus Station is Owned by the Company that owns the shopping centre is then Leased to Moray Council and Sublet to Stagecoach.

 

[Volvodart]

Access to the bus station isn't dependent on the shopping centre being open. The drivers' room and waiting room (if it's actually open) are accessed from the bus station concourse.

There is the issue of toilet facilities, though. They're located on the lower level of the shopping centre and won't be available if it's shut. I dare say that it would be quite easy to maintain a corridor from the lower level exit to the toilets and block off the rest of the centre (they're on the same side of the building) but it would still require heating and lighting, along with security and cleaners etc.; the question of who pays for it would come into play. It would seem that Moray Council's decision to close and sell off the toilet block on North Street was quite short-sighted after all, but that's another subject entirely!

The other issue is accessibility - there will be no lift access to the High Street and people with mobility issues will have to exit at the North Street end. There are dropped kerbs, but I appreciate that it's not going to be as easy.

From this article it looks like alternatives are being considered.

St Giles Centre closure: What will happen to Elgin bus station?

The closure of the shopping centre has thrown into doubt where Stagecoach services will run from in Elgin.

www.pressandjournal.co.uk

St Giles Centre closure: What will happen to Elgin bus station?
Stagecoach is one of the companies that has been told it needs to move out of the Elgin shopping centre in less than two weeks.

By David Mackay
January 10 2025, 6:00 am

Uncertainty surrounds the future of Elgin bus station following confirmation the St Giles Centre is closing.

Stagecoach leases part of the shopping centre to run its services from Elgin to Aberdeen, Inverness, Lossiemouth and Speyside.

It also uses the building as a base to run its Moray operations from with rest facilities for drivers and other staff during their shift.

Meanwhile, there is also a waiting room for bus station passengers with public toilets available inside the St Giles Centre.

The closure of the shopping centre has thrown into doubt where Stagecoach services will be run from in Elgin.

Search for new home for Elgin bus station
Stagecoach has told the Press and Journal it is in talks with Moray Council about finding an alternative location for its services.

It is understood the transport operator received the same letter as other St Giles Centre tenants informing them they would no longer have access to the building after January 20.

Buses parked at Elgin bus station.
Elgin bus station provides shelter for passengers and facilities for Stagecoach staff. Image: David Mackay/DC Thomson
Renovating the bus station and moving it from the shopping centre altogether have been options considered by Moray Council previously.

The sudden closure of the St Giles Centre means an alternative location now needs to be found in less than two weeks.


A spokeswoman for Stagecoach North Scotland said, “We are currently in discussions with the local authority with regard to the future of Elgin bus station.

“We will update customers as soon as a solution is agreed.”

Where could St Giles Centre bus station be moved to?
It is understood there is an agreed emergency procedure for buses to operate when the bus station at the St Giles Centre is inaccessible for whatever reason.

The protocol was last implemented in February last year when police sealed off the area to investigate the death of bus driver Keith Rollinson.

On that occasion, bus departures towards Inverness and Lossiemouth were moved to Tesco and services heading towards Aberdeen and Speyside were moved to outside Elgin Town Hall.

Elgin Town Hall exterior.
Stagecoach services have been run from outside Elgin Town Hall for short periods previously. Image: Jason Hedges/DC Thomson
Bus services were only relocated at that time for just one day and it is unlikely either location would be considered suitable as a long-term solution.

Large land available to Moray Council to offer as a more permanent solution includes the Lossie Green car park.


However, the ground does not include any shelter for waiting passengers or toilets for customers and drivers.

Another option could involve negotiating some kind of ongoing access to the bus stances at the St Giles Centre with temporary facilities provided for staff and passengers outside the main building.

 

[computerSaysNo]

The bus station is owned by Moray Council and leased to Stagecoach.

From this article it looks like alternatives are being considered.

St Giles Centre closure: What will happen to Elgin bus station?

The closure of the shopping centre has thrown into doubt where Stagecoach services will run from in Elgin.

www.pressandjournal.co.uk

These seem to contradict each other. If the bus station is owned by the council and leased directly to Stagecoach, why have Stagecoach been given the same letter regarding moving out as a result of the St Giles Centre closing?

 

[Volvodart]

These seem to contradict each other. If the bus station is owned by the council and leased directly to Stagecoach, why have Stagecoach been given the same letter regarding moving out as a result of the St Giles Centre closing?

They use the facilities of the centre for toilets and so on.

 

[computerSaysNo]

They use the facilities of the centre for toilets and so on.

So did the moving out notice just refer to their use of the toilets? The Centre owners wouldn't have authority to stop Stagecoach using the bus station itself if they don't own or manage it I wouldn't think?

 

[PG]

These seem to contradict each other. If the bus station is owned by the council and leased directly to Stagecoach, why have Stagecoach been given the same letter regarding moving out as a result of the St Giles Centre closing?

I wonder if this is now a game of chess between Moray Council and Upland Developments - seeing as legal action by the former concerning unpaid rates appears to have prompted the later to throw in the towel?

 

[GusB]

The other local rag has spoken:

Toilets, car park, bus station - what changes will St Giles Centre closure bring?

News of St Giles Centre’s imminent closure came as a shock to many.

www.northern-scot.co.uk

News of St Giles Centre’s imminent closure came as a shock to many.

Despite confirmation that it will close on January 20 many questions remain unanswered.

Here is what they had to say:

Will the centre's closure have an impact on the St Giles Centre car park?

No, the car park will remain in use as it is currently.

Will the toilets within the centre remain accessible to the public or will they be closed?

The toilets are within the centre and managed by the centre so our understanding is they will not be accessed when the building closes.

How does the council plan on recouping the reported £750,000 in unpaid non-domestic rates?

Action taken, if any, will depend on what happens to St Giles Holding Co ltd.

Will the taxpayer foot the bill if this fee cannot be recouped?

The council is the rates levying body and bills, collects and enforces payment and retains all Non-Domestic Rates (NDR) collected.

However, NDR forms part of the overall funding package from the Scottish Government, who will effectively make up the shortfall to Moray Council from this debt.

Does the council know what will happen to the building in the short term after January 20?

The council is not privy to the plans the owners have for the building after 20 January.

Will the closure have any kind of impact on Stagecoach and the bus station?

We have requested clarification on the future of the bus station in its current location and will continue to work with Stagecoach on contingency arrangements.

A spokesperson for Stagecoach North Scotland said: "We are currently in discussions with the local authority in regard to the future of Elgin Bus Station.

“We will update customers as soon as a solution is agreed."

I'm not entirely convinced that the council does own the bus station, as claimed in post #1399. Otherwise, why is there any doubt about the ongoing use and a need to find an alternative location? It could continue as is, just without access to the centre's facilities.

These seem to contradict each other. If the bus station is owned by the council and leased directly to Stagecoach, why have Stagecoach been given the same letter regarding moving out as a result of the St Giles Centre closing?

The drivers' facilities and waiting room are part of the shopping centre building, although accessed independently. This is probably why Stagecoach has received the same letter.

 

[Volvodart]

I'm not entirely convinced that the council does own the bus station, as claimed in post #1399. Otherwise, why is there any doubt about the ongoing use and a need to find an alternative location? It could continue as is, just without access to the centre's facilitie

You are correct. See text below. Only link I could find is to the pdf document below.

https://www.google.com/url?client=internal-element-cse&cx=018169252035124248266:nopcj3r4dru&q=http://www.moray.gov.uk/minutes/data/DC20151020/Item%252011-Elgin%2520Bus%2520Station%2520Improvements-R.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwic1fSdm-uKAxWJVaQEHQR3DvQQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1saC_aBPI303XoHZZIiBpG

3.3 The bus station is owned by the St Giles Shopping Centre, with the Council holding the master lease. The bus operator, Stagecoach, leases the bus station from the Council.

 

[GusB]

You are correct. See text below. Only link I could find is to the pdf document below.

https://www.google.com/url?client=internal-element-cse&cx=018169252035124248266:nopcj3r4dru&q=http://www.moray.gov.uk/minutes/data/DC20151020/Item%252011-Elgin%2520Bus%2520Station%2520Improvements-R.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwic1fSdm-uKAxWJVaQEHQR3DvQQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1saC_aBPI303XoHZZIiBpG

Thanks for that. It does rather complicate matters, and no doubt the legal bods will be busy!

At least there's a slightly easier alternative this time around, which would be to put in a few temporary stops around the corner on North Street. That option wasn't available the last time the bus station was closed due to the building work at Poundland, but that's now done and the street has been reopened. There were stops there previously for the old town services, so it's not without precedent.

Hopefully the relevant parties will see sense without having to resort to any disruptive measures, though.

 

[Volvodart]

With the continuation below, they have not confirmed if the toilets will be open or the alternative arrangements.

Town bus station plans revealed - but only ‘for the time being’

Services will continue operating from a town’s main bus station after its only shopping centre closes - but backup plans remain on the table.

www.grampianonline.co.uk

A joint statement from Stagecoach and Moray Council confirmed that there will be no changes to bus services - although only “for the time being”.

"Stagecoach will continue to operate as normal from the current Bus Station location in Elgin for the time being,” a spokesperson said.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I should imagine that this is not all that welcome to locals who will no doubt have a raft of questions on access issues and other concerns that have been raised in threads such as the stagecoach North Scotland, one

 

[Volvodart]

With the continuation below, they have not confirmed if the toilets will be open or the alternative arrangements.

Town bus station plans revealed - but only ‘for the time being’

Services will continue operating from a town’s main bus station after its only shopping centre closes - but backup plans remain on the table.

www.grampianonline.co.uk

The Press and Journal confirms that there is no access to the waiting room or the toilets.

 

[GusB]

I sent a messge to Stagecoach on Twitter yesterday, asking whether or not there was any progress. I received the following response: "Good morning, when there are any updates these will be posted to our website. -NK". The response came back rather more quickly than I was expecting, which suggests that it wasn't the first time that the question had been asked.

There was an article that appeared in the Northern Scot a few days ago which illustrates how the situation may not be quite as simple as we'd like.

Town bus station plans revealed - but only ‘for the time being’

Services will continue operating from a town’s main bus station after its only shopping centre closes - but backup plans remain on the table.

www.northern-scot.co.uk

Services will continue operating from a town’s main bus station after its only shopping centre closes - but backup plans remain on the table.

Moray’s biggest travel hub, at Elgin Bus Station, will carry on serving the public “as normal” despite the site being owned as part of the St Giles Centre.

It is understood that Moray Council leases the bus station from the shopping centre firm, before subletting it to bus firm Stagecoach.

A joint statement from Stagecoach and Moray Council confirmed that there will be no changes to bus services - although only “for the time being”.

"Stagecoach will continue to operate as normal from the current Bus Station location in Elgin for the time being,” a spokesperson said.



“Moray Council continues to work with all partners involved with the St Giles Centre closure and will keep contingency plans for the bus station under review with Stagecoach for as long as necessary.”

Property firm Upland Developments Limited controls St Giles Shopping Centre Ltd, with both companies led by Aviemore buisinessman David John Cameron.


After the closure was announced - less than two weeks ago - an Upland Developments Limited spokesperson claimed that “severe financial pressures” and Moray Council’s support for out-of-town shopping developments contributed to the closure.

In November, it was revealed that Moray Council had agreed to pursue £750,000 in unpaid business rates owed by St Giles Shopping Centre Holdings Ltd.

Title deeds show that both Elgin Bus Station and the St Giles Centre are located on land owned, since 2014, by an Imperial Tobacco pension fund and leased to St Giles Shopping Centre Holdings Ltd.


The purchase price totalled £4.5 million along with £900,000 in VAT.

St Giles Shopping Centre Holdings Ltd, which sub-lets units to tenants, currently holds the £217,800 per year lease on the shopping centre until 2139.

There we have it. The land is owned by a multi-national pension fund, then it's let out on a long term basis to an organisation that sublets to an organisation that sublets to another organisation which in turn sublets it to another... no bloody wonder the situation is so difficult to resolve!

The St Giles Centre has been an utter farce from the moment it was conceived and I'd love to see the thing demolished. We could have a decent bus station and still have some space for smaller retail units.