Electrostars an underrated train?

[387star]

Forgive me for always praising these trains but I've grown to love Electrostars. With many around twenty years old perhaps it's nostalgia too (and their association with my home town) as I have vivid memories of their arrival whilst I was at secondary school. The Rail magazine at the time read 'Late but worth the wait'

Obviously it's a shame the seats on later batches got harder and the ride quality leaves a lot to be desired but if seated in the outer cars or in any coach of earlier batches they offer a superb travelling environment.

All seats align with windows, the trains are lovely and quiet and even the noise they make is relaxing. Reading lights come as standard and there is even a privacy screen in the /4 and /5s outer cars. Now plug sockets are being fitted they really are wonderful to travel on.

To improve them proper upholstery should be fitted and the awful centre car seats (of most 377s) improved. I wonder how many muggles know there are two seating options?

Any thoughts?

 

[yorksrob]

The original ones on the Kent coast routes are very nice trains (amongst the best of the privatised era infact). I go for them over HS1. I'll never understand those ones with proper seating in the end carriages and ironing boards in the middle ones. What's that all about !

Although to me they'll never be a patch on the slammers they replaced.

 

[387star]

I forgot to mention all the large tables in the outer cars too

 

[Recessio]

I've always admired their adaptability too. Work perfectly well in inner Metro configurations as 378s, outer Metro as 376, suburban and regional as 2+2 or 3+2 electrostars and turbostars.

Amazing that afterwards Bombardier managed to make such a hash of the Voyagers/Meridians, and had so many issues getting the Aventras in service. Maybe the Electrostars was so successful because it was originally an ABB/AdTranz design that in turn owes a lot to the BREL Networker design, not a Bombardier original?

 

[387star]

I've always admired their adaptability too. Work perfectly well in inner Metro configurations as 378s, outer Metro as 376, suburban and regional as 2+2 or 3+2 electrostars and turbostars.

Amazing that afterwards Bombardier managed to make such a hash of the Voyagers/Meridians, and had so many issues getting the Aventras in service.

Voyagers were earlier. They've not aged well at all on XC

 

[43096]

The original ones on the Kent coast routes are very nice trains (amongst the best of the privatised era infact). I go for them over HS1. I'll never understand those ones with proper seating in the end carriages and ironing boards in the middle ones. What's that all about !

It's very simple "what that is all about". The 2+2 seated outer cars are CIG replacement and the 2+3 cars are VEP replacement. Rather than having separate CIG and VEP replacement fleets, they have one fleet of 377s.

 

[MCR247]

The original ones on the Kent coast routes are very nice trains (amongst the best of the privatised era infact). I go for them over HS1. I'll never understand those ones with proper seating in the end carriages and ironing boards in the middle ones. What's that all about !

Although to me they'll never be a patch on the slammers they replaced.

Trying to cover all bases I believe since they replaced slam door stock with different seating types

 

[Blindtraveler]

The diesel turbo star incarnations I cannot stand. Horrible units that I've never liked from the very first journey I travelled on one which perhaps somewhat predictably given where I live was a Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh journey.

The electric electro stars and other variants I absolutely love. The fact that the 387 incorporate some truly terrible seating some what two tracks from them but they are still great pieces of kit and long may they last.

 

[NSE]

The 377 is my ultimate favourite. Yeah, yeah, I know they’re the same as the 375 but the nostalgia connected to them means the 377 will always take the edge for me. The outer cars are wonderful. Comfy, seats aligned, quiet, I think they’re lovely. I get the middle carriages take the commuter part of their use. So I always go for the 2/2 carriages. I think they’re wonderful units. I could certainly travel a long distance on a 377.

 

[RJ]

I think most of them are perfectly alright - decent, functional units with good temperature control. I like the 377s, comfort wise they are a step up from the 455s. I like having the option of making a beeline for the individual seats in both the older and newer variants. In the newer 377s and the 387s I like the cosy feel of the table seats between the vestibule and interior carriage door.

I wouldn’t underestimate people’s observational skills, a lot of people who use the trains regularly will get a feel for them and notice the difference in seats and things like that.

I think the 387s and 379s are nice. The red in the Gatwick Express units is a bit bright. The Heathrow units are decent but feel so generic in comparison to the 332s before them, which properly got me into the holiday mood.

Not got much opinion on 375s. Have never used them regularly. There are so many sub classes and seating configurations it’s hard to know where the better seats are!

I’m not keen on on the 376s - I’d take a Networker or 707 every time. The seats get taken far more quickly and an odd feature is the luggage racks at the ends of the carriages which more than a few passengers seem to enjoy using as seats. They’re also somewhat murky inside.

And the 378s - I know they work busy routes with platform length limitations so the design is most practical for that but all longitudinal seating puts me off a bit. If there is an alternative train type or even route I’ll use it. Not all journeys on them are that brief and sometimes it’s nice to be able look out of the window. That said that’s a luxury I’m used to as I only ever really use trains outside of peak hours.

I’m neutral on the 357s. Again they are functional but some table seats would be nice. The loud noises that come from the pantograph area in neutral sections aren’t especially pleasant.

 

[dubscottie]

I travelled on one about 15 years ago from London to Brighton and return and haven't been on one since. I was very impressed. For seats that looked horrible, they were comfortable enough, better than the Scotrail turbostars. I was travelling behind the cab in what I presume was declassified first-class. Ride was 100%.

 

[43096]

Not got much opinion on 375s. Have never used them regularly. There are so many sub classes and seating configurations it’s hard to know where the better seats are!

With 375s it’s easy: if it numbered 3759xx it has 3+2 seating. All the other 375 variants have the very comfortable 2+2 seats.

 

[KC1]

Forgive me for always praising these trains but I've grown to love Electrostars. With many around twenty years old perhaps it's nostalgia too (and their association with my home town) as I have vivid memories of their arrival whilst I was at secondary school. The Rail magazine at the time read 'Late but worth the wait'

Obviously it's a shame the seats on later batches got harder and the ride quality leaves a lot to be desired but if seated in the outer cars or in any coach of earlier batches they offer a superb travelling environment.

All seats align with windows, the trains are lovely and quiet and even the noise they make is relaxing. Reading lights come as standard and there is even a privacy screen in the /4 and /5s outer cars. Now plug sockets are being fitted they really are wonderful to travel on.

To improve them proper upholstery should be fitted and the awful centre car seats (of most 377s) improved. I wonder how many muggles know there are two seating options?

Any thoughts?

I'm completely with you on this. Can't get my head round the fact there are some people out there that don't like them yet they'll happily admit to liking the soulless, uncomfortable and dull 700s.

 

[mightyena]

I'm completely with you on this. Can't get my head round the fact there are some people out there that don't like them yet they'll happily admit to liking the soulless, uncomfortable and dull 700s.

At least the 700s don't feel like they're falling to bits. My main impression of the Electrostars are that they're fine, but they suffer from the famous Bombardier Build Quality. The 377/5s felt absolutely knackered towards the end of their tenure on Thameslink (the seats would creak and clang as you sat on them, if the cushion didn't just come away from the seat body, the air con was pretty ineffective, and the less said about ride quality the better), and some of the Southern examples ride so poorly that things were falling off the tables, and some of the passengers were getting concerned.

They also feel a bit dingy and much more cramped compared to their contemporaries from Siemens, the 350s, 444s and 450s

Overall not bad, but not great either.

I think most of them are perfectly alright - decent, functional units with good temperature control. I like the 377s, comfort wise they are a step up from the 455s. I like having the option of making a beeline for the individual seats in both the older and newer variants. In the newer 377s and the 387s I like the cosy feel of the table seats between the vestibule and interior carriage door.

I think this is my feeling about them too. Decent, don't hate them by any stretch, but not as good as the alternatives.

I’m neutral on the 357s. Again they are functional but some table seats would be nice. The loud noises that come from the pantograph area in neutral sections aren’t especially pleasant.

Most 357s do have table seats in some of the bays at the carriage ends (unless they've been removed, it's been a while since I've been on one). Well, the original spec 357/0s and 357/2s do, the refurbished 357/3s don't have them, as they were refurbished with a more "metro" style interior with 2+2 and no tables for the shorter distance routes.

 

[physics34]

From a drivers point of view you cant beat a Slammer, but the 377s have good acceleration and good brakes. Reliability much much improved on early days. Ride quality a bit of an issue though id say.

Passenger wise.... Cupboard toilet... stupidly small, first class hopeless, but generally good trains. Some units have an annoying electrical buzz in the DMOS.

Agree with others on the stupid rough seat fabric, which looks warn out and dirty quicker than normal seat fabric

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

At least the 700s don't feel like they're falling to bits. My main impression of the Electrostars are that they're fine, but they suffer from the famous Bombardier Build Quality. The 377/5s felt absolutely knackered towards the end of their tenure on Thameslink (the seats would creak and clang as you sat on them, if the cushion didn't just come away from the seat body, the air con was pretty ineffective, and the less said about ride quality the better), and some of the Southern examples ride so poorly that things were falling off the tables, and some of the passengers were getting concerned.

377's air con is one of the better ones even on 30deg + day and a rush hour load of hot passengers i relished the journey home in a nice cool environment. It responds far quicker to change in ambient temp than a 700.

 

[Wolfie]

At least the 700s don't feel like they're falling to bits. My main impression of the Electrostars are that they're fine, but they suffer from the famous Bombardier Build Quality. The 377/5s felt absolutely knackered towards the end of their tenure on Thameslink (the seats would creak and clang as you sat on them, if the cushion didn't just come away from the seat body, the air con was pretty ineffective, and the less said about ride quality the better), and some of the Southern examples ride so poorly that things were falling off the tables, and some of the passengers were getting concerned.

They also feel a bit dingy and much more cramped compared to their contemporaries from Siemens, the 350s, 444s and 450s

Overall not bad, but not great either.


I think this is my feeling about them too. Decent, don't hate them by any stretch, but not as good as the alternatives.

Most 357s do have table seats in some of the bays at the carriage ends (unless they've been removed, it's been a while since I've been on one). Well, the original spec 357/0s and 357/2s do, the refurbished 357/3s don't have them, as they were refurbished with a more "metro" style interior with 2+2 and no tables for the shorter distance routes.

Some of the 357s still have table seats behind the cabs.

 

[MattRat]

What OP fails to understand, is people don't tend to praise what they like, and are more likely to complain about what they don't like. Considering this, I've barely heard any complaints about the Electrostars, which speaks highly of them. So no, I don't think they are underrated, it's just the human condition that hides the praise.

 

[yorksrob]

It's very simple "what that is all about". The 2+2 seated outer cars are CIG replacement and the 2+3 cars are VEP replacement. Rather than having separate CIG and VEP replacement fleets, they have one fleet of 377s.

I suppose there's a logic to it !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2022 ==

What OP fails to understand, is people don't tend to praise what they like, and are more likely to complain about what they don't like. Considering this, I've barely heard any complaints about the Electrostars, which speaks highly of them. So no, I don't think they are underrated, it's just the human condition that hides the praise.

Indeed. Good old workhorses.

 

[Trainlog]

As someone who has to use the 375/77s down here in the Southeast i can agree with the sentiment that the Op has put across. The Southeastern ones are good as they do offer a moderate level of comfort with some reasonably padded seats and a long arm rest which is great. As for the reading lights and the coathooks, i barely see people actually use them as the lighting is good enough to read a book without them, and most people usually put their coats on the seat next to them tbh, but its nice to know that you have the choice of using them if you wish to.

They serve their purpose well as generic commuter trains and they are nice to look at from a design point of view. The thing is that as they are so monotonous they are going to go underappreciated as though there is some emu and demu class diversity down here, its pretty much your primary no thrills train to get you from A-B. For a while these trains where also a way of showing that Southeastern hadn't kept up with the times as it took until this year for them to start installing plug sockets on board them and to read the ticket sales records to begin getting rid of first class which is pretty much a teatowel on a headrest.

Though overall i do enjoy them my one personal gripe with them is that i dislike the fact that the interior lighting makes this irritating buzzing noise that can ruin the journey if you don't zone out enough to ignore it. But compared to the seat quality of any of the 700 series and the fact that the 375s problems are now being addressed, i don't wish for them to go any time yet!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

What OP fails to understand, is people don't tend to praise what they like, and are more likely to complain about what they don't like. Considering this, I've barely heard any complaints about the Electrostars, which speaks highly of them. So no, I don't think they are underrated, it's just the human condition that hides the praise.

Good observation

 

[Class2ldn]

I used to quite enjoy driving them, coupling them could be a pain with the internal doors and the mitrac throwing up hissy fits not recognising the other unit etc but overall they were decent, terrible vision but it is what it is.
Still prefer driving the 700s now.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I remember viewing one at Ramsgate (375.620?) when new and thought I would never like them having grown up with HAPs and CEPs. But they have grown on me and I've become fond of them.

But still not a patch on the old slammers....

 

[zwk500]

What OP fails to understand, is people don't tend to praise what they like, and are more likely to complain about what they don't like. Considering this, I've barely heard any complaints about the Electrostars, which speaks highly of them. So no, I don't think they are underrated, it's just the human condition that hides the praise.

Doesn't this mean that they're underrated if they're not given praise they're due because of a tendency to be disproportionately more vocal about negatives?

 

[yorksrob]

I remember viewing one at Ramsgate (375.620?) when new and thought I would never like them having grown up with HAPs and CEPs. But they have grown on me and I've become fond of them.

But still not a patch on the old slammers....

So true !

 

[exit.music]

Having recently started working for GTR, I have become a lot fonder of 377s, as they are great runners and proper workhorses. 9 out of 10 times, train faults can be simply rectified with a quick reset of the unit. The units see an absolute battering most days, with their relative availability quite high.

As OP mentions, the 377s (specifically /1s, /2s, /4s and /5s) have an odd seating arrangement, whereby coaches 1 and 4 have all 2+2 seating, and the intermediate coaches have a mixture of predominantly 2+3 with bits of 2+2. And like OP, this is probably the thing that annoys me most. It makes it mightily uncomfortable during crush loading, and the 2+3 seating prevents the placement of grab poles/handles in the carriage.

An observation a friend of mine (veg) from Canada made was that 377s felt a bit like an odd mismatch of long-distance express unit and a metro unit. I quickly explained to him the concept of "outer-suburban" rolling stock, and we both realised that 377s are the pinnacle of this concept, thus increasing my like for them.

(One more thing that I realised annoys me a bit about Electrostars - their ride quality. In comparison to units that are generally similar in age such as Desiros and Turbostars, Electrostars have a relatively poor ride quality, something that one can feel completely when on a 387 going non-stop from Kings Cross to Cambridge. The ride quality is not as dire as it is on a Desiro City, but it is something that I have noticed throughout my life on 377s.)

 

[jackot]

I'm a big fan of the Electrostars. Although clearly not as well screwed together as the Desiros, they have a better interior ambience and feel a little less clinical.
I like the earlier units ordered by Connex most of all, mainly the 2+2 377/1s and 377/3s, with glass interior separators and more comfortable sprung seats. 375s are also great units as well.

 

[MattRat]

Doesn't this mean that they're underrated if they're not given praise they're due because of a tendency to be disproportionately more vocal about negatives?

It's an issue that effects more than the Electrostars, so you couldn't just use it for them specifically, like saying they are specifically underrated.

 

[Recessio]

Voyagers were earlier. They've not aged well at all on XC

Voyagers were later: Electrostars first entered service in 1999 by AdTranz as the Class 357. Voyagers weren't even constructed until 2000, entering service in 2001.

Turbostars were even earlier, the Class 168s built by AdTranz entering service in 1998.

Bombardier later bought AdTranz in 2001.

But it goes to show the vast difference between what was an original Bombardier design (the Voyagers, utterly terrible), and the ABB/AdTranz Electrostars and Turbostars, which are fantastic. Bombardier just slapped their names on an existing design.

And the Electrostar/Turbostars designs owe a lot to BREL's Networkers - later built by ABB, which became AdTranz - which might be why they were so successful...

 

[jackot]

Voyagers were later: Electrostars first entered service in 1999 by AdTranz as the Class 357. Voyagers weren't even constructed until 2000, entering service in 2001.

Turbostars were even earlier, the Class 168s built by AdTranz entering service in 1998.

Bombardier later bought AdTranz in 2001.

But it goes to show the vast difference between what was an original Bombardier design (the Voyagers, utterly terrible), and the ABB/AdTranz Electrostars and Turbostars, which are fantastic. Bombardier just slapped their names on an existing design.

And the Electrostar/Turbostars designs owe a lot to BREL's Networkers - later built by ABB, which became AdTranz - which might be why they were so successful...

It's a bit like Alstom and Bombardier. I don't think I will see the Aventras or Electrostars an Alstom product.

As you said, aside from continuing to build the various 'Stars, Bombardier have never really designed any particularly decent trains in the UK - Voyagers and 701s spring to mind when thinking of the contraptions they have designed themselves.