Electrostar Type Numbers - 377 - 387

[BingBong50]

Apologies for what may be a very basic question but what determines a change to the type numbers?

So basically we were up to 377/7 but then it changed to 387/1. Why did it not go to 377/8?

 

[cactustwirly]

Because the 377 can only do 100mph, but a 387 can do 110mph. It's very confusing!

 

[CAF397]

Is that the only technical difference? The Anglia 379s were a slightly different design to the 377s too weren't they?

 

[dosxuk]

Is that the only technical difference? The Anglia 379s were a slightly different design to the 377s too weren't they?

You won't be getting a 379 to sub for a 377 any time soon.

 

[jopsuk]

Because the 377 can only do 100mph, but a 387 can do 110mph. It's very confusing!

Yet the 350/1 and /3 can do 110 but the /2 can't.

Top tip: don't expect consistency from the class numbering system. There isn't any, especially since the southern region DC class numbering system ended.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'll be honest, I find the current system easier to understand than the old Southern unit numbers... But yes it was all fine when they were sequential, but when they started choosing class numbers for style instead of approximate date or functional order, it started making far less sense. About the only out of sequence class number I supported was 165/365/465, at least there was a logical reason for that.

 

[MK Tom]

Is that the only technical difference? The Anglia 379s were a slightly different design to the 377s too weren't they?

But the 377/6 and 377/7 are actually the 379 body design. It's all rather meaningless really.

 

[jopsuk]

You won't be getting a 379 to sub for a 377 any time soon.

They'd be fine on the northern bits of the routes served by 377s!

 

[AM9]

But the 377/6 and 377/7 are actually the 379 body design. It's all rather meaningless really.

But surely the dual voltage function has a higher priority than the production standard of the body. So class 377 still means ac/DC or DC convertible to dual. That means though that the 375 versus 377 numbering is a bit of an anomaly. But is there such a thing as a dual voltage 375?

 

[Peter Sarf]

But surely the dual voltage function has a higher priority than the production standard of the body. So class 377 still means ac/DC or DC convertible to dual. That means though that the 375 versus 377 numbering is a bit of an anomaly. But is there such a thing as a dual voltage 375?

The 375s and 377s (subclasses /1 to /5) have more than a lot in common !. In fact they are identical apart from the coupler. The 377s were originally going to be 375s until the South Central franchise wanted different couplers to South Eastern. You could not expect to have two members of the same class unable to couple to each other - that could cause screw ups. Thats what I was lead to believe.

The 377/6 and(corrected) 377/7 are really dual voltage 379s and have a lot in common with the 379s. The 377/6s are DC only 377/7s. They (377/6 & 377/7) are not really 377s and its probably the worst inconsistency of the class numbering scheme I know of.

Class 387 was probably chosen as a play on 377. Actually the 387s are much more like 379s.

 

[AM9]

The 375s and 377s (subclasses /1 to /5) have more than a lot in common !. In fact they are identical apart from the coupler. The 377s were originally going to be 375s until the South Central franchise wanted different couplers to South Eastern. You could not expect to have two members of the same class unable to couple to each other - that could cause screw ups. Thats what I was lead to believe.

The 377/6 and 377/7 are really dual voltage 379s and have a lot in common with the 379s. They are not really 377s and its probably the worst inconsistency of the class numbering scheme I know of.

Class 387 was probably chosen as a play on 377. Actually the 387s are much more like 379s.

OK so which electrostars can couple-up and run in service on ac, DC and a split supply diagram?

 

[physics34]

The 375s and 377s (subclasses /1 to /5) have more than a lot in common !. In fact they are identical apart from the coupler. The 377s were originally going to be 375s until the South Central franchise wanted different couplers to South Eastern. You could not expect to have two members of the same class unable to couple to each other - that could cause screw ups. Thats what I was lead to believe.

The 377/6 and 377/7 are really dual voltage 379s and have a lot in common with the 379s. They are not really 377s and its probably the worst inconsistency of the class numbering scheme I know of.

Class 387 was probably chosen as a play on 377. Actually the 387s are much more like 379s.

375s don't have DOO equipment.

 

[Smitham]

Yes the 375/6 had pantographs fitted I think.

 

[Peter Sarf]

OK so which electrostars can couple-up and run in service on ac, DC and a split supply diagram?

Ha - made me think, the 377/6s are not dual voltage . I will go back and correct my earlier post.

The only dual voltage electrostars are 377/2, 377/5 and 377/7. The 375(/6 iirc) have never used it and are viewed as unlikely to). But the 377/7s really have more in common with a 379 than the original 377s (/1-/5) in my view. How good the 377/7s are at working in multiple with earlier 377s I am not sure of. The 377/7s (and /6s) have a different version software that has had to be made compatible with 377/1-377/5. I don't recall the 377/7s ever being coupled to a 377/2(or /5) on an AC part of the network and it is (was ?) rare on the DC network.

The 377/6s are a non dual voltage but otherwsie the same as 377/7s.

Thing to bear in mind is that a class number can be broken down into sub classes but they are usually all the same loco/unit with only very minor variations. Of course its hard to define what is a big enough difference. However if 377/6s and 377/7s are similar enough to earlier 377s then why do 379s have a different class number. There are loads of different class numbers that can couple up and run together. Examples are 317-318-(319?)-320-321. I can understand why the distinction was made between 375 and 377 so as to avoid the inability to couple being overlooked.

 

[jopsuk]

I'd suspect that "375" was chosen as a follow on from "357". Quite why 357 was allocated such I've no idea. It all leaves the 37x range a bit of a mess:
370: APT, the original electric tilting traing
371: the unbuilt "Universal Networker" that was supposed to be built for Thameslink
372: unallocated
373: Eurostar Transmanche Super Train (TMST), TGV based but gauge compatible for UK lines and 3rd rail capable (until they removed the shoes)
374: Eurostar e320, the forthcoming Velaro-D units
375: Southeastern's Electrostar fleet
376: The first "metro" Electrostars, at Southeastern
377: mainly the same thing as 375 (especially since Southeastern changed all their couplers too), at Southern and Thameslink, except the /6 and /7 are significantly updated design but set up to be compatible with the rest of the Southern fleet
378: London Overground "Capitalstar" metro units with wide through gangways and entirely longitudinal seating
379: AC-only new-generation Electrostar (that the 377/6 & /7 are based on) at Greater Anglia, on Stansted and Cambridge services

The other Electorstars:
357: AC only first-generation, C2C
387: Dual voltage 110mph capable that were briefly going to be 377/8 until someone had a weird panic about diagramming.

 

[Peter Sarf]

375s don't have DOO equipment.

Didn't know that, makes sense. Was that a difference specified late on by the franchise ?.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd suspect that "375" was chosen as a follow on from "357". Quite why 357 was allocated such I've no idea. It all leaves the 37x range a bit of a mess:
370: APT, the original electric tilting traing
371: the unbuilt "Universal Networker" that was supposed to be built for Thameslink
372: unallocated
373: Eurostar Transmanche Super Train (TMST), TGV based but gauge compatible for UK lines and 3rd rail capable (until they removed the shoes)
374: Eurostar e320, the forthcoming Velaro-D units
375: Southeastern's Electrostar fleet
376: The first "metro" Electrostars, at Southeastern
377: mainly the same thing as 375 (especially since Southeastern changed all their couplers too), at Southern and Thameslink, except the /6 and /7 are significantly updated design but set up to be compatible with the rest of the Southern fleet
378: London Overground "Capitalstar" metro units with wide through gangways and entirely longitudinal seating
379: AC-only new-generation Electrostar (that the 377/6 & /7 are based on) at Greater Anglia, on Stansted and Cambridge services

The other Electorstars:
357: AC only first-generation, C2C
387: Dual voltage 110mph capable that were briefly going to be 377/8 until someone had a weird panic about diagramming.

Yes, quite why the AC emus did not follow on from 357 onwards I don't know. The 357s are the only electrostars with out inter unit gangway connections though. As regards 377/8 becoming 387s I guess someone realised that re-using class 377 was being taken too far (or fast !).

 

[Class377/5]

The 357s are the only electrostars with out inter unit gangway connections though.

Er the 376 & 378 don't have gangways either.

As regards 377/8 becoming 387s I guess someone realised that re-using class 377 was being taken too far (or fast !).

The term 377/8 was never official but used differentiate between the on order /6, /7 and 387 units that were all ordered internally.

You all do realise any Electrostar can couple to another, only software is stopping them doing so in passenger service (each TOC has different software, tho thy 387s won't work with other Electrostars DOO equipment).

 

[sarahj]

On the insides, the earlier 377's have a different set up for the universal toilet. Both buttons and display. Control for the doors on the earlier ones are D for Door and L for lock. Later ones have 3 buttons, open, close and lock. Toilet occupied display is white on /1's and red and can flash when OOU on later ones. Even newer ones have a stainless steel metal lav. Control of the lavs on the /1's are a t-bar slot outside. On the newer ones, its a panel you open, with a knob switch.

And when you open the conductors panel the red emergency button is in the way, thus the panel does not open fully and if your not careful you can bash your head when boarding if its open. Later models moved the button and panel door can swing back out the way.

Another little thing, from the 5's onwards, when you open the cab door there is a little light outside pointing at the step.

 

[Mikey C]

It's all a bit messy really, especially when all recent 3rd rail trains have the provision to have a pantograph fitted. What's the difference between the 3rd rail only 375s for South Eastern and the 450s, 458s and 460s?

 

[swt_passenger]

Even when brand new there was a bit of a discussion as to whether at least the SWT Desiros should have been numbered in the 3nn series. As you say there is no logical difference been your example and a similarly 'pantograph-less' 377/1, 377/3, 377/4 etc.

I wonder if they'll bother changing the unit numbers if they ever do fit them for AC OH pickup?

 

[Mikey C]

Even when brand new there was a bit of a discussion as to whether at least the SWT Desiros should have been numbered in the 3nn series. As you say there is no logical difference been your example and a similarly 'pantograph-less' 377/1, 377/3, 377/4 etc.

I wonder if they'll bother changing the unit numbers if they ever do fit them for AC OH pickup?

Being given 4** numbers and even the unofficial SR codes (4DES, 5DES, 4JOP) for some reason makes them seem like proper Southern Region trains

 

[physics34]

On the insides, the earlier 377's have a different set up for the universal toilet. Both buttons and display. Control for the doors on the earlier ones are D for Door and L for lock. Later ones have 3 buttons, open, close and lock. Toilet occupied display is white on /1's and red and can flash when OOU on later ones. Even newer ones have a stainless steel metal lav. Control of the lavs on the /1's are a t-bar slot outside. On the newer ones, its a panel you open, with a knob switch.

And when you open the conductors panel the red emergency button is in the way, thus the panel does not open fully and if your not careful you can bash your head when boarding if its open. Later models moved the button and panel door can swing back out the way.

Another little thing, from the 5's onwards, when you open the cab door there is a little light outside pointing at the step.

toilet door locks on 377/6s and /7s so much better than on the early /1s and 3/s.

At least you can tell whether they are locked or not, can understand these being confusing.

the 6s and 7s also have the extra light on the front and camera, and a different "hill start" button in the cabs.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Yet the 350/1 and /3 can do 110 but the /2 can't.

Top tip: don't expect consistency from the class numbering system. There isn't any, especially since the southern region DC class numbering system ended.

The 350/4 is 110MPH capable as well (if TPE don't break them)

 

[CAF397]

Just reading in the latest Railnews, it says one of the main differences is the 387s have cab equipment made by a different manufacturer. Maybe that was deemed enough for a new classification?

 

[physics34]

Just reading in the latest Railnews, it says one of the main differences is the 387s have cab equipment made by a different manufacturer. Maybe that was deemed enough for a new classification?

They seem to have built In DAS (driver advisory system), and a new type of TPWS and AWS activation indicators.