Electrostar GTR cascade

[Class455]

Perhaps its a good idea to keep all of the 377/1 units with Southern rather than transferring them to Southeastern. If the units were to leave Southern than surely it would mean they wouldnt be able to run as many longer trains and would result in more overcrowding.

I'd agree. It would make more sense to lease some additional Class 387's rather than lose some 377's. I would have loved to have seen all Class 377's being operated by Southern, but that doesn't look likely because when the 377/5's return home, the 377/1's will be gone.

 

[Class377/5]

Ah yes I forgot about that. What was the net increase to SE?

It was a small number though and still leaves SE Metro with way too many 6 carriage peak time trains. Have you seen how busy those leaving Cannon Street and Victoria are in the evening peaks? They're extremely busy by Lewisham and only getting worse with all the towers around the station becoming occupied.

This really does need to be sorted asap.

Around 20 odd units or 80 coaches. Plus the additional 6 units (24 coaches) they got due to the cascades on Thameslink (SE have 6x 319 on hire which they swap with Thameslink for 6x 377 daily).

However your ignoring the fact that TfL will need to address the issues if we continue to march into their control.

This is just a guess but maybe if Southern are keeping the 377/1s than they might use the 377/2s and 377/5s to replace the 313s?

Nope.

313s are going nowhere, I believe 377/5s will most likely head to SE. But that could and probably will change. Until things start to actually happen it's probably best to wait and see. But the plan to finally get 465/9s off all mainline work has most definitely gone out the window. Which is a shame given how knackered they are.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing 365s. But a man can dream.

Replace 377/5 with Thameslink 377s. There is a 9 unit difference.

I'd agree. It would make more sense to lease some additional Class 387's rather than lose some 377's. I would have loved to have seen all Class 377's being operated by Southern, but that doesn't look likely because when the 377/5's return home, the 377/1's will be gone.

There is more 377/1 than will/was going to SE.

 

[ert47]

With some Thameslink services post 2018 diverted into North Kent, how many Networkers/376s would that free up? (.sp)

 

[ScotGG]

With some Thameslink services post 2018 diverted into North Kent, how many Networkers/376s would that free up? (.sp)

376s don't go on the semi-fasts.

There's 2 an hour semi fasts. But unknown whether Thameslink replaces that service or its truncated to Dartford and run by TfL. If it goes there's no service to Blackheath, Lewisham, Waterloo East and Charing Cross. Might be politically difficult to cut that.

 

[Class377/5]

376s don't go on the semi-fasts.

There's 2 an hour semi fasts. But unknown whether Thameslink replaces that service or its truncated to Dartford and run by TfL. If it goes there's no service to Blackheath, Lewisham, Waterloo East and Charing Cross. Might be politically difficult to cut that.

It's replacing the current service.

 

[ScotGG]

Are they looking to permanently close the Charlton-Blackheath tunnel?

 

[swt class 450]

Is there any chance that some new 387s (387/4s?) might be built for Southeastern?

 

[Class377/5]

Is there any chance that some new 387s (387/4s?) might be built for Southeastern?

They can never work with SE existing units bar ECS moves tho.

Whether or not Bombardier will build them when they are trying to sell more Aventra units is another question. The original issue of new design standards has gone away so could happen.

 

[swt class 450]

They can never work with SE existing units bar ECS moves tho.

Whether or not Bombardier will build them when they are trying to sell more Aventra units is another question. The original issue of new design standards has gone away so could happen.

Yes that is a good point. Out of interest what is the reason that the newer Electrostar design (377/6 377/7 387/1 387/2 387/3 379/0) trains are unable to work with the older Electrostar design (375/3 375/6 375/7 375/8 375/9 377/1 377/2 377/3 377/4 377/5) trains?

 

[Class377/5]

Yes that is a good point. Out of interest what is the reason that the newer Electrostar design (377/6 377/7 387/1 387/2 387/3 379/0) trains are unable to work with the older Electrostar design (375/3 375/6 375/7 375/8 375/9 377/1 377/2 377/3 377/4 377/5) trains?

The 377/6 and 377/7 work with older Electrostar designs, hence the 377 classification.

The 387 are different and not backwards compatible hence a different class number.

The reason is the older Electrostar's use late 1990 technology where as the 387/Aventra use 2015 tech. Lots of things have changed in the last 20 years technology wise. Including some parts are not longer available.

 

[swt class 450]

The 377/6 and 377/7 work with older Electrostar designs, hence the 377 classification.

The 387 are different and not backwards compatible hence a different class number.

The reason is the older Electrostar's use late 1990 technology where as the 387/Aventra use 2015 tech. Lots of things have changed in the last 20 years technology wise. Including some parts are not longer available.

Thanks for the info. Its a shame that they were not made compatible. Have the 377/6 377/7 actually worked coupled to 377/1 377/2 377/3 377/4 377/5 in public service? Ive personally never known of this to happen before.

 

[Class 466]

Are they looking to permanently close the Charlton-Blackheath tunnel?

An all stations 2Lxx Charing X - Dartford via that route will run.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there any chance that some new 387s (387/4s?) might be built for Southeastern?

No chance whatsoever. Not in the current franchise, and I doubt Bombardier would offer the Electrostar to prospective 2018 bidders.

 

[ert47]

Thanks for the info. Its a shame that they were not made compatible. Have the 377/6 377/7 actually worked coupled to 377/1 377/2 377/3 377/4 377/5 in public service? Ive personally never known of this to happen before.

When first introduced there was a service that was formed of 8 coaches. (377/3+ a /6 or /7 -- cannot remember which one)

 

[Class377/5]

Thanks for the info. Its a shame that they were not made compatible. Have the 377/6 377/7 actually worked coupled to 377/1 377/2 377/3 377/4 377/5 in public service? Ive personally never known of this to happen before.

All the Southern types have been attached to the 5 cars. One peak had a 3, 4 and 5 car in it.

Currently all Thameslink 377s (207-215/501-523) are not compatible for service with the Southern units

 

[physics34]

When first introduced there was a service that was formed of 8 coaches. (377/3+ a /6 or /7 -- cannot remember which one)

There was a booked AM service from sutton with a 377/6 and a 377/3 for a short while but cannot remember the specifics.

I have driven the odd old/new combination as 8, 9, and 11 cars

 

[ScotGG]

Any further news on what's happening. Any ideas for alternatives mentioned - eg some 319s next year for a couple of years? Many will be sitting in sidings wont they so wont cost much to lease?

 

[Class377/5]

Any further news on what's happening. Any ideas for alternatives mentioned - eg some 319s next year for a couple of years? Many will be sitting in sidings wont they so wont cost much to lease?

Don't expect news soon if things really have changed.

 

[Class 466]

Any further news on what's happening. Any ideas for alternatives mentioned - eg some 319s next year for a couple of years? Many will be sitting in sidings wont they so wont cost much to lease?

Still promised 6 377s to play with from December. What type they will be is all to play for

 

[physics34]

As more 700s come into service...and there will be surplus stock... (377s, 365s, 319s, 321s, 317s), is there enough room to have stock just sitting around?.. you see how quickly the 442s were shoved out of the way.

It would be great to have a timeline of some sort.!

 

[Class377/5]

Still promised 6 377s to play with from December. What type they will be is all to play for

Worth noting SE already has the 6x 377 on loan, the difference is these six stop being peak only and linked into Thameslink cycle but get used far more by SE and are part of their own SE cycle.

As more 700s come into service...and there will be surplus stock... (377s, 365s, 319s, 321s, 317s), is there enough room to have stock just sitting around?.. you see how quickly the 442s were shoved out of the way.

It would be great to have a timeline of some sort.!

GTR is supposed to keep stock around for about a month however its not really done this where stock has a new home and services to fill.

The timeline for all of this is huge as its all interlinked and spans multiple TOCs.

 

[ScotGG]

As more 700s come into service...and there will be surplus stock... (377s, 365s, 319s, 321s, 317s), is there enough room to have stock just sitting around?.. you see how quickly the 442s were shoved out of the way.

It would be great to have a timeline of some sort.!

It would look terrible politically if a lot of stock is sitting in sidings. Tory Kent MPs for example wouldn't be happy knowing that's happening while being whinged at about overcrowding. Depends if its picked up by the papers I suppose.

But they have such a lead maybe the leadership will think sod it.

 

[321over360]

Are they available from Dec like the 377s were supposed to be?

Overcrowding is now getting silly at Cannon Street in the evening peak with cuts due to rebuilding work. Extra trains are needed asap. The 377/1 plan did that.

Well there are several 6 car services in the Evening Peak from Cannon Street, including the jam packed 18.14 service which from next week will be going to 8 carriages in length as some Charing Cross trains are going to be reduced from 10 carriages of Networkers to 8 carriages to alleviate the overcrowding on the reduced frequency of services say on the Greenwich Line. only 3 Trains from Cannon Street call all stations to Slade Green via Greenwich and Woolwich between 18:00 and 19:00 compared to off peak of 6TPH until 20:00 when that reduces to 4TPH. Alot of the problems is due to the fact there is now only single track working through London Bridge since September which has meant the reduction in peak trains on the Metro side but retention of Peak Mainline services.

 

[Fincra5]

Not that it means anything but at Lovers Walk last night there was a 387 with Ashford Intl as its destination

 

[Class377/5]

Any further news on what's happening. Any ideas for alternatives mentioned - eg some 319s next year for a couple of years? Many will be sitting in sidings wont they so wont cost much to lease?

Update for you and others. Noting changed. Seems the excitement was over some people's misunderstanding of what's happening so everyone calm down its a non event.

 

[D365]

Are the 377/1s still proposed then?

 

[physics34]

Update for you and others. Noting changed. Seems the excitement was over some people's misunderstanding of what's happening so everyone calm down its a non event.

anything you can tell us on the 377/2s and /5s and what they are going to be allocated on and when? Im looking forward to getting to my train at selhurst depot AC sidings one morning and seeing a purple 377/5 is allocated to my train..!

 

[Class377/5]

Nothing futher to add sorry folks. More info likely soon.

 

[physics34]

Nothing futher to add sorry folks. More info likely soon.

if 700s are starting to replace 377 diagrams then it might not be too far away lol

 

[Class377/5]

if 700s are starting to replace 377 diagrams then it might not be too far away lol

It should be fairly soon, just can't say anything at present. More trying to instil the end of the world that some posters seem to feel hasn't happened.

 

[ComUtoR]

377 training has started at one of the SE depots....