Electrostar GTR cascade

[Brian Aylott]

thats good that saves sending everything to wolverton or eastleigh

The 377 fleet (/1 - /5) are getting close to needing a full repaint, on the basis they are starting to look tatty, especially the /3s. Not sure when it is due, but dont forget they only had a patch up job last time around.

Although things might change, the earliest 377s due for C6s and repaint are in 2/2019 (377/1s) followed by the 377/4s & 5s from 8/2019, the 377/3s from 10/2019 and the 377/2s from 1/2021!
Brian

 

[physics34]

Although things might change, the earliest 377s due for C6s and repaint are in 2/2019 (377/1s) followed by the 377/4s & 5s from 8/2019, the 377/3s from 10/2019 and the 377/2s from 1/2021!
Brian

the last C6 they were only patched up though..as were the 171s. Some of the early 377s are looking faded and there is some rust on the roofs....and the interiors are looking tired already!

 

[387star]

the last C6 they were only patched up though..as were the 171s. Some of the early 377s are looking faded and there is some rust on the roofs....and the interiors are looking tired already!

The squeaky tables too

Would not be surprised for a c2c approach with more 2+2 seating in the centre cars such is the trend now to increase standee space

 

[physics34]

The squeaky tables too

Would not be surprised for a c2c approach with more 2+2 seating in the centre cars such is the trend now to increase standee space

With southern it seems that they dont want the units to be out of service for long due to high stock requirement.. so i cant even see them doing things like that as it would take too long.

The inhouse "refresh" a few years ago was quite impressive in the time taken but was very basic. They had the chance to alter the seating then but didnt.

Maybe now with more stock lying about with all the cascading they will do a bit more.

In a recent document..maybe it was even the network rail CP6, there was a mention of making southern suburban stock "high density". The 377/3s could fit in 10 or so more seats if they did away with the comfy 2x2 seats and replaced them with ironing board seats.

 

[RichardKing]

The 377/3s could fit in 10 or so more seats if they did away with the comfy 2x2 seats and replaced them with ironing board seats.

But, that would be sinful! Imagine how many people would be arriving into the capital with terrible back pain!

Getting on 377 105 the other day was a reminder of why the 2+2 seating is one of the last good things about Southern.

 

[ert47]

In a recent document..maybe it was even the network rail CP6, there was a mention of making southern suburban stock "high density". The 377/3s could fit in 10 or so more seats if they did away with the comfy 2x2 seats and replaced them with ironing board seats.

3+2 airline seating anyone?

 

[ScotGG]

Why has there been no announcement about this? I would have thought it would be good PR for beleaguered old Southeastern?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Why has there been no announcement about this? I would have thought it would be good PR for beleaguered old Southeastern?

I suspect Southern might not want it headlined that they're losing a large number of units to another area because the press will very likely tear them apart over it...

 

[D365]

I suspect Southern might not want it headlined that they're losing a large number of units to another area because the press will very likely tear them apart over it...

Despite the fact that they're gaining a number of units back? It's effectively just a unit swap.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Despite the fact that they're gaining a number of units back? It's effectively just a unit swap.

Yes, but would the press present it fairly given that Southern are currently the Aunt Sally stall of the railway?

 

[swt_passenger]

3+2 airline seating anyone?

The normal tactic on suburban routes nowadays is to take seats out to make them higher (standing) capacity.

I doubt anyone's plans result in putting extra seats in to make a train 2+3 in areas where it wasn't already.

 

[physics34]

The normal tactic on suburban routes nowadays is to take seats out to make them higher (standing) capacity.

I doubt anyone's plans result in putting extra seats in to make a train 2+3 in areas where it wasn't already.

you can fit more 2x2 ironing boards in the space currently taken up by old style 377 2x2 seats and tables.... i guess they mean that. As you say, 3x2 isnt welcome anymore...!

 

[Class 466]

As with all things, last minute changes occur. Looks like the 377/1 deal is off. Other options now being looked into.

 

[physics34]

As with all things, last minute changes occur. Looks like the 377/1 deal is off. Other options now being looked into.

Oh! What does that mean for other cascades? The remaining 365s may go to SE instead then?

 

[RichJF]

Could that indicate some 319s heading over as previously mentioned?

 

[ScotGG]

As with all things, last minute changes occur. Looks like the 377/1 deal is off. Other options now being looked into.

Unbelievable. How many times can SE be shafted? They were supposed to start moving over next month or December.

Southern, Thameslink (all routes), SWT, FGW, c2c, London Overground have all had a net increase in trains the past 5 years or confirmed plans. SE have been asking for more stock for years.

There's huge growth in the London area and only vague plans that are then cancelled. There were going to be 319s apparently. Then cancelled. Then 377/1s. I asked why it hasn't been publicly announced but many said it would happen.

Trains from Cannon Street and through Lewisham in particular are packed now and people cannot board. There's not enough carriages for SE for those routes plus Victoria routes to Dartford and Orpington. 6 carriages is not enough.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm not sure how anyone can claim the idea of using 319s was cancelled when it was never agreed. All that was discussed was SE various ideas it had for increasing stock ahead of the 2018 date that was actually agreed.

Also worth pointing out the 377/1 were not the only option on the table so it might be worth waiting for actual word on what's happening rather than assuming bad news.

Worthing noting that the South London routes that ScotGG mentions are looking increasingly likely that they aren't DfT to plan for but rather TfL's.careful for what you wish for as it's possible TfL plans means DfT cannot plan with any increases due to changes in a couple of years time.

An idea here, and just that, is the recent study that TfL magical increase in capacity as just 24 coaches worth for SE Metro services might because it's thinking about replacing a larger section of the fleet (less eats means more capacity) meaning SE no longer needs the 377/1 for capacity?

 

[ScotGG]

OK the 319s plan was not cancelled then but despite plans being really quite advanced (staff training was planned according to staff on here) it was kicked out. Then 377/1s. now kicked out.

With SE it's always jam tomorrow. Never seems to happen.

If 377/1s are not the only option what else can start moving over next month? Overcrowding really does need a solution very soon. Class 319s plan arises again?

And what happens to 30 377/1s.

It's alarming to cancel advanced plans so late in the day. I may be wrong, but was it you that even listed the units that would move? Things were really quite advanced and many suggested it was already signed off.

 

[ComUtoR]

OK the 319s plan was not cancelled then but despite plans being really quite advanced (staff training was planned according to staff on here)

Staff training is still happening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An idea here, and just that, is the recent study that TfL magical increase in capacity as just 24 coaches worth for SE Metro services might because it's thinking about replacing a larger section of the fleet

Clarity would be helpful here. Are you suggesting that SE will replace part of their fleet? What with ?

 

[Class 466]

I'm not sure how anyone can claim the idea of using 319s was cancelled when it was never agreed. All that was discussed was SE various ideas it had for increasing stock ahead of the 2018 date that was actually agreed.

Also worth pointing out the 377/1 were not the only option on the table so it might be worth waiting for actual word on what's happening rather than assuming bad news.

Worthing noting that the South London routes that ScotGG mentions are looking increasingly likely that they aren't DfT to plan for but rather TfL's.careful for what you wish for as it's possible TfL plans means DfT cannot plan with any increases due to changes in a couple of years time.

An idea here, and just that, is the recent study that TfL magical increase in capacity as just 24 coaches worth for SE Metro services might because it's thinking about replacing a larger section of the fleet (less eats means more capacity) meaning SE no longer needs the 377/1 for capacity?

The 24 additional coaches was noted as being on top of the 36 377/1s. I'm aware of other plans now being made, but we shall see how far they go to replace what had just been planned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

OK the 319s plan was not cancelled then but despite plans being really quite advanced (staff training was planned according to staff on here) it was kicked out. Then 377/1s. now kicked out.

With SE it's always jam tomorrow. Never seems to happen.

If 377/1s are not the only option what else can start moving over next month? Overcrowding really does need a solution very soon. Class 319s plan arises again?

And what happens to 30 377/1s.

It's alarming to cancel advanced plans so late in the day. I may be wrong, but was it you that even listed the units that would move? Things were really quite advanced and many suggested it was already signed off.

The late implementation of the 700s is part of the issue.

 

[Class377/5]

Few notes heres

SE has had stock increase in recent years. Do people forget the 377 order for Thameslink was directly due to FCC taking over SE services and not for train lengthening? Train lengthening was due to the 3x 377/2 transferring from Southern to FCC.

As for the identity of other solutions beyond the 377/1, not everything is to be public but the 377/1 were not the only units on the table.

As for the 24 additional coaches, changes beyond GTR/SE plan means the full stock position is currently fluid as without a fully agreed timetable the complete stock position cannot be guaranteed.

700 cascade doesn't cancel the transfer of units. Worth pointing out that GTR is contracted to provide units in time for December 2018. Current plan is giving the units plus extra way eailer.

I'm still not convinced the none moving of the 377/1 is an issue but cannot give further details. But I do think people are jumping to conclusions based on fears not facts.

 

[ScotGG]

Few notes heres

SE has had stock increase in recent years. Do people forget the 377 order for Thameslink was directly due to FCC taking over SE services and not for train lengthening? Train lengthening was due to the 3x 377/2 transferring from Southern to FCC.

Ah yes I forgot about that. What was the net increase to SE?

It was a small number though and still leaves SE Metro with way too many 6 carriage peak time trains. Have you seen how busy those leaving Cannon Street and Victoria are in the evening peaks? They're extremely busy by Lewisham and only getting worse with all the towers around the station becoming occupied.

This really does need to be sorted asap.

 

[swt class 450]

Perhaps its a good idea to keep all of the 377/1 units with Southern rather than transferring them to Southeastern. If the units were to leave Southern than surely it would mean they wouldnt be able to run as many longer trains and would result in more overcrowding.

 

[physics34]

Perhaps its a good idea to keep all of the 377/1 units with Southern rather than transferring them to Southeastern. If the units were to leave Southern than surely it would mean they wouldnt be able to run as many longer trains and would result in more overcrowding.

That was gonna be covered by the 377/5s and 377/2s returning from Thameslink and more 377s avaliable generally as 700s take over London Bridge to Brighton and Horsham services as well as peak time East Grinstead and Littlehampton services.

 

[swt class 450]

That was gonna be covered by the 377/5s and 377/2s returning from Thameslink and more 377s avaliable generally as 700s take over London Bridge to Brighton and Horsham services as well as peak time East Grinstead and Littlehampton services.

This is just a guess but maybe if Southern are keeping the 377/1s than they might use the 377/2s and 377/5s to replace the 313s?

 

[aleggatta]

This is just a guess but maybe if Southern are keeping the 377/1s than they might use the 377/2s and 377/5s to replace the 313s?

And then more conductors are not needed just after they will have decided to keep x amount to man the 313's. I don't think GTR will be thinking about that...

Here's a thought... What about all those 365's going spare? 3rd rail mod going on them and bobs your uncle! *ducks for cover*

 

[D365]

Here's a thought... What about all those 365's going spare? 3rd rail mod going on them and bobs your uncle! *ducks for cover*

Everyone seems to have it out for southeastern don't they... All this rolling stock going spare and nobody lets them have it

 

[ScotGG]

And then more conductors are not needed just after they will have decided to keep x amount to man the 313's. I don't think GTR will be thinking about that...

Here's a thought... What about all those 365's going spare? 3rd rail mod going on them and bobs your uncle! *ducks for cover*

Are they available from Dec like the 377s were supposed to be?

Overcrowding is now getting silly at Cannon Street in the evening peak with cuts due to rebuilding work. Extra trains are needed asap. The 377/1 plan did that.

 

[Class 466]

313s are going nowhere, I believe 377/5s will most likely head to SE. But that could and probably will change. Until things start to actually happen it's probably best to wait and see. But the plan to finally get 465/9s off all mainline work has most definitely gone out the window. Which is a shame given how knackered they are.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing 365s. But a man can dream.

 

[physics34]

This is just a guess but maybe if Southern are keeping the 377/1s than they might use the 377/2s and 377/5s to replace the 313s?

the lease is not up on the 313s or 455s until 2021. Unless plans are made to change the lease then they will be staying.

Its possibily more likely that the 377/5s are going to SE instead?????