Electrostar buffet provision

[Sad Sprinter]

Way back in 2002 (I think) I remember waiting for a train at Gatwick Airport back to London with my parents when a then new class 377 rake pulled in on the opposite platform. I remember my Mum pointing out the "buffet car" to me on the train which, obviously, was a mistake on her part as no such provision existed. But it got me thinking lately if there ever was a specification for a buffet car in the original slam door replacement stock on the Central system - even on bids from manufacturers other than Adtranz who ultimately weren't selected for the bid.

 

[AngusH]

They probably could have been built if desired, the turbostar diesel stock got a few units with mini-buffets, as did 442 and 444, some 319 units?, so I'm pretty sure if they had been requested it could probably have been done.


The impression I get is that the buffet operation in the south central and south east seems to have failed before this generation of stock arrived.
i.e BR and first private operators had already given up operating the buffets on the slam door stock, so they skipped it in the new units.


I offer this related thread with some timelines of when various parts gave up:

Why did the South Eastern Division do away with buffet cars long before the Central Division did so?

Does anyone know why the South Eastern Division did away with buffet cars long before the Central Division did so? I believe that the BEPs disappeared from the South Eastern in about 1980/81 when they were refurbished and converted to CEPs by replacing the buffet car with a former loco-hauled...

www.railforums.co.uk

I too would be very interested to read old bid documents, but I suppose they are all archived
somewhere and will never see the light of day.

The lack of a buffer car is disappointing really, I have always thought better of trains which had one.

I think they genuinely tried under br to keep things going, but connex probably wasn't much interested.

Though I think, I'd like to see an electrostar with a buffet car or even a dining car.
I'm just trying to think of a scenario where that might happen?
Maybe if the franchise had required a Brighton Belle pullman service?

 

[Rescars]

I fear you will be out of luck with dining cars. The problem with a full meal service is that you need long enough between stops for passengers to eat it. Food service is challenging if the corridors are blocked by passengers and luggage! In the Travellers Fare era, one of the shortest runs for full dining was between Euston and Coventry which at that time took around 70 minutes. There aren't many non-stop runs this long on Southern territory.

 

[AY1975]

They probably could have been built if desired, the turbostar diesel stock got a few units with mini-buffets, as did 442 and 444, some 319 units?, so I'm pretty sure if they had been requested it could probably have been done.


The impression I get is that the buffet operation in the south central and south east seems to have failed before this generation of stock arrived.
i.e BR and first private operators had already given up operating the buffets on the slam door stock, so they skipped it in the new units.


I offer this related thread with some timelines of when various parts gave up:

Why did the South Eastern Division do away with buffet cars long before the Central Division did so?

Does anyone know why the South Eastern Division did away with buffet cars long before the Central Division did so? I believe that the BEPs disappeared from the South Eastern in about 1980/81 when they were refurbished and converted to CEPs by replacing the buffet car with a former loco-hauled...

www.railforums.co.uk

I too would be very interested to read old bid documents, but I suppose they are all archived
somewhere and will never see the light of day.

The lack of a buffet car is disappointing really, I have always thought better of trains which had one.

I think they genuinely tried under BR to keep things going, but connex probably wasn't much interested.

Though I think, I'd like to see an electrostar with a buffet car or even a dining car.
I'm just trying to think of a scenario where that might happen?
Maybe if the franchise had required a Brighton Belle pullman service?

This thread on why on-train catering is no longer viable in most cases may also be of interest: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...tering-no-longer-viable-in-most-cases.276161/

 

[The Sorcerer]

Edit.

 

[stadler]

They probably could have been built if desired, the turbostar diesel stock got a few units with mini-buffets, as did 442 and 444, some 319 units?, so I'm pretty sure if they had been requested it could probably have been done.


The impression I get is that the buffet operation in the south central and south east seems to have failed before this generation of stock arrived.
i.e BR and first private operators had already given up operating the buffets on the slam door stock, so they skipped it in the new units.


I offer this related thread with some timelines of when various parts gave up:

Why did the South Eastern Division do away with buffet cars long before the Central Division did so?

Does anyone know why the South Eastern Division did away with buffet cars long before the Central Division did so? I believe that the BEPs disappeared from the South Eastern in about 1980/81 when they were refurbished and converted to CEPs by replacing the buffet car with a former loco-hauled...

www.railforums.co.uk

I too would be very interested to read old bid documents, but I suppose they are all archived
somewhere and will never see the light of day.

The lack of a buffer car is disappointing really, I have always thought better of trains which had one.

I think they genuinely tried under br to keep things going, but connex probably wasn't much interested.

Though I think, I'd like to see an electrostar with a buffet car or even a dining car.
I'm just trying to think of a scenario where that might happen?
Maybe if the franchise had required a Brighton Belle pullman service?

I think the Southern Class 319 units was just an area with some lounge seating and counters where a trolley could park up and operate from. It avoided the trolley having to go through a busy train. It was not really a mini buffet counter like the 442s and 444s had.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Way back in 2002 (I think) I remember waiting for a train at Gatwick Airport back to London with my parents when a then new class 377 rake pulled in on the opposite platform. I remember my Mum pointing out the "buffet car" to me on the train which, obviously, was a mistake on her part as no such provision existed.

I think she may have seen the red stripe above the disabled area?

A whole generation would have been brought up to recognise that the red stripe meant food available. My parents were once giving a lift to the late Charles Town of St John Ambulance - someone who certainly had his head screwed on properly - and as they drove past Epsom railway station there was a train in platform 1 in the then new Network SouthEast livery; Mr Town immediately exclaimed: "Look at all those buffet cars!"

You have, however, started a very interesting and worthwhile discussion on the provision of food on trains.

Journey length, as has been pointed out, is a key point - but once past the journey length issue the main point is not so much the money as the perception of the money; when the accountants look only at the provision itself and sharpen their axes. In sharp contrast, as recently explained on Green Signals TfW runs their dining provision on the Mk4 rakes as a deliberate loss leader in that they accept not making a profit on the food itself because they understand that the availability attracts passengers who would otherwise travel by other means; they make an overall profit on the food offering through this means... i.e. the extra fares income.

 

[AlterEgo]

I fear you will be out of luck with dining cars. The problem with a full meal service is that you need long enough between stops for passengers to eat it. Food service is challenging if the corridors are blocked by passengers and luggage! In the Travellers Fare era, one of the shortest runs for full dining was between Euston and Coventry which at that time took around 70 minutes. There aren't many non-stop runs this long on Southern territory.

You don't need trains to be non-stop to have a dining car, just that there is enough passenger flow travelling a long distance to make use of it.

 

[Transilien]

Deleted