Electrify the cardiff valley lines

[lm321412]

Reading this,

Dare I say;

We have plenty of 508s and a few 313s

 

[Solaris]

this might be of interest....

http://www.iwa.org.uk/en/events/view/118
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
and this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-12328032

 

[ChrisCooper]

I often wonder if the sensible approach for branch line electrification would be to use lower voltages than 25kV. Light weight EMUs would need less power, and lower voltages would mean lower clearances from structures. Whilst we often look to Europe for inspiration when it comes to large scale electrification, it is often forgotten that their 25kV milage is pretty low, especially once dedicated high speed lines are taken out. To some extent I think the UKs desision to standardise on 25kV was costly when it came to expansion of electrification, and if the continuation of 1500v for secondary routes would have lead to more widespread electrification. The French afterall do fine with 1500v on many routes, including some of the mainlines around Paris.

 

[Bevan Price]

I often wonder if the sensible approach for branch line electrification would be to use lower voltages than 25kV. Light weight EMUs would need less power, and lower voltages would mean lower clearances from structures..

Would it be cheaper to convert the Cardiff Valley lines to a Manchester or Tyneside -style tramway, retaining provision for any occasional freight services that might still be running ? Most of the Valley line passenger services are self-contained and need not conflict with any 25 kV electric lines at Cardiff.

If ever electrified, only Maesteg & Ebbw Vale lines would be 25 kV, and initially use cascaded emu's from elsewhere.

Bevan

 

[anthony263]

Would it be cheaper to convert the Cardiff Valley lines to a Manchester or Tyneside -style tramway, retaining provision for any occasional freight services that might still be running ? Most of the Valley line passenger services are self-contained and need not conflict with any 25 kV electric lines at Cardiff.

If ever electrified, only Maesteg & Ebbw Vale lines would be 25 kV, and initially use cascaded emu's from elsewhere.

Bevan

You are forgetting about the Vale of glamorgan route between Bridgend & Cardiff Central which does carry mainline trains. I agree with the rest of your post however the only mianline trains are occasional railtours or the coal trains

 

[Solaris]

Full report here....
http://www.cardiffbusinesspartnership.co.uk

 

[WatcherZero]

Thats a horrible site to navigate, I can find a news story and press coverage reporting but cant find the actual report.

Edit: Nevermind theirs a link to it on the frontpage but not on the actual press release story about it!

Proposed:
* Electrify all lines.
* A new tram line south-east from Beddau and Creigiau to Cardiff and on to the Bay.
* A new rapid bus transit linking Maerdy with Llantrisant.
* With Tram links to Penarth, Barry and Cardiff Airport.
* A tram link alongside the south Wales mainline between Severn Tunnel Junction and Cardiff Central to serve intermediate stations.
* Perhaps a cross Valley rapid bus transit from Pontypridd to Newbridge.

Assumptions 80 mile Great Western and 130 miles Valley electrification £3-4m a mile, 50 miles of new/upgraded light rail track £20m a mile, £50m heavy rail extensions, fleet of 100 trains at £1.5m each.

 

[dalmahoyhill]

mr justin stacey

large centralised fossil fuel burning power stations and a electric grid supplying electric trains is far more efficient than trains hauling the dead weight of small diesel engines around.
plus electric trains are lighter accelerate faster, are cheaper to buy and maintain but apart from that diesel rules. thats why you see lots of diesel high speed lines!

What is even more efficient is replacing our big fossil fuel stations with renewables and other sources? and wait what to i hear? we are starting to do that. 20 years time expect electric trains supplied by nuclear and renewables. oh and oil isnt going to get any cheaper in the next 30 years. apart from that there is no good reason to electrify.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I think we need the alternative energy before we do too much electrification though. The French electrified when they went to Nuclear, the Swiss hydroelectric. Any UK electrification in the near future (even by railway terms) is going to be mostly coming from the existing mainly coal and gas burning grid. The grid is also getting overloaded as it is, there never seems to be much about where the extra generating capacity is going to come from for all this electrification. Going to look good if they throw up the wires and we get a really hot summer and suddenly the grid goes down under the airconditioning load (I'm pretty sure peak loading is more and more due to summer aircon than winter heating). Either that or a cold winter and the gas runs low.

 

[WatcherZero]

Theres not really any aircon in this country, daily peak load is after Eastenders ends in the evening when millions of people switch on the kettle (yes really). Looking at last 6 months of National Grid data demand in Summer is 20-50% less than in Winter depending on time of day. In the Summer we tend to export energy to France (Their nuclear generators dont run much in summer because unlike us who built them on the coast they built them on rivers and in summer water levels too low to take for cooling) though even in summer most days we import more than we export depending on french rainfall.

 

[Rhydgaled]

WAG announced today that it was to fund (with Convergence money) a 3 mile dual carriageway link road from Port Talbot Docks to the M4. At £107 million or £35 million a mile.

How many route miles could be electrified for that?

Over 30 miles I think if the figure of £3.5m per mile of electrification I have is correct (I think it may have been you who provided it).

...but could all stations cope with a six car EMU? (a three car EMU will be the size of two Pacers, given the short 15m coaches)

How long are 150s? I assuming they can't be much shorter than a 2-car class 377 Electrostar would be and that the platforms lengthened to take 6 cars would have been done to take 6-car 150s not just 6-car pacers. Maybe a 6-car Electrostar would therefore fit in those legthened platforms, if not maybe with a mix of 2 and 3 car Electrostars they could run trains as 5-car formations which perhaps would fit.

The "Greater Cardiff" area can justify an electrified "Metro" service. The rest of Wales can't. Sadly the politicians will want some kind of equivalent investment elsewhere, which would push up the costs of Valley Electrification (since you'll need to be seen to be spending money in Gwynedd etc too, even if it's not justified)

The "Greater Cardiff" area, are you including Swansea in that? There are some similar valleys radiating from Swansea, however unlike Cardiff their railways have all been lifited or reduced to freight-only. In the north a very different project is needed, a Metro type thing is inappropriate, but the electrification of the North Wales Coast Line to Holyhead, Llandudno, Almwch (currently mothballed) and Caernarfon (currently lifted) would be appropriate, but not till after Valleys electrification and alongside Wrexham Central - Mersyrail. Another project for the north is to reopen Mold to Denbigh and Rhyl to Bala via Denbigh and Corwen (as these are linked to Wrexham Central and the North Wales Coast I thin I could be worth electrifing these from the outset.) I'm getting very long term now though, we need very many years of transport budgets to cover that lot.
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Using Valleys to save GWML electrification
I've been getting worried the dft will cut the GWML electrification to Swansea, so to encourage them I have sent the following suggestion to the Welsh Assembly (via the local AM):

1. Cancel the £600m dualing of the Heads Of The Valleys road
2. Use this money to:
   • Electrify Maesteg Branch
   • Electrify Ebbw Vale Branch
   • Electrify Newport to Chelenham Spa (half of the diversionary route when the Severn Tunnel is closed)
   • Pay for electrification from Swansea to Newport if the dft won't
   • Buy 15 3-car class 377 units
   • Have £73,310,000 left over (well, there will probablly be some overspend, but that's quite a bit of spare money)

This would cover most of the investment cost of the Welsh part of the GWML electrification, so the dft have less to fork out.

The electric services would then be:

• 1tph Paddington - Swansea (INTERCITY 225) calling at Reading, Didcot Parkway, Swindon, Bristol Parkway, Newport, Cardiff Central, Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Neath and Swansea High Street (forgive me if I missed somewhere)
• 1tp2h Paddington - Swansea (INTERCITY 225) calling at Reading, Newport, Cardiff Central and Swansea High Street
• 1tp2h Paddington - Swansea (INTERCITY 225) calling at Bristol Parkway, Newport, Cardiff Central and Swansea High Street
• 1tph Swansea - Cheltenham Spa (3-car Electrostar) calling at all stations (requires 6 units)
• 1tph Maesteg - Ebbw Vale Parkway (3-car Electrostar) calling at all stations (requires 4 units)
• 2tph Ebbw Vale Parkway - Newport (3-car Electrostar) calling at all stations (requires 3 units - as there's no service at present I can't be sure on journey times, if less than 50mins one way the service could be reduced to 1tph and only need 2 units)

Electrostar unit requirements based on current timetables, superior acceleration and top speed of Electrostars versus pacers and 150s may reduce journey times enough to lower the required number of units. The numbers above leave 2 units spare.

I would keep every last unit in Wales at this point, with any 158s still used on Cheltenham trains re-allocated for a 2-hourly Fishguard - Cardiff express via the Swansea District Line (3 158s required per day, mostly coming from putting push-pull LHCS on the Holyhead-Birminghams after the Cambrian goes hourly) and the 150s used to confine Pacers to Valleys services only (no more Pacers to Pembroke & Tenby). Whoever suggested using 150s on the District Line, the Fishguard service is currently a 150 and they are woefully inappropriate for the most express service in south Wales (it doesn't call at Pembrey & Burry Port, Bridgend and Port Talbot Parkway, which even the Paddington trains serve at the moment, with the 90mph potential of a 158 I would stop the FGH trains at Bridgend though, to give links to Maesteg and Vale Of Glamorgan).
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Going beyond what I have so far sent to the assembly:
Next the lines through Queen Street would electrified, starting with the main part of the Vale Of Glamorgan (Bridgend to Cardiff) perhaps with rather short sections of 90 or 100mph west of Barry where the stations are less densly spaced (but it's not straight enough for fast speeds in most places) and the Merthyr and Aberdare lines. The Pacers would start being cascaded to other operators (or scrapped if nobody wants them) except for 1 or 2 for emergency use on the Cardiff Bay line. The Pacers moving away would leave the remaining non-electrified Valleys using 150s until the electrification teams have finished the whole network. I'd probablly still keep all 150s in Wales to provide more services (including Holyhead-Llandudno, Swansea-Milford Haven, Conwy Valley 2-hourly service extended to Trawsfynydd and lengthening of trains that currently use 153s) unless we can swap some of them for 158s, 156s, 155s or pairs of 153s.

As sombody has already said I'd open an all new route to Brecon as an extension of the Merthyr line (this extension is probablly the only place the Electrostars would get up to 100mph). I'd also extend the Aberdare line to Swansea Docks via Glyn-Neath as the start of a ValleyLines network for Swansea. Beyond Brecon I doubt electrification would be considered worthwhile on the line I'd re-instate from there to Newtown and the mix of re-instated and all-new line I'd put from Caernarfon through to Porthmadog so 158s would take over. North of Brecon would be 1tph to Newtown, extending in alternate hours to Bangor or Holyhead via Caernarfon and in the other hours to Wrexham via a reopened line through Owestry. EDIT: There would also be the Holyhead-Cardiff LHCS (WAG express), diverted to run via Brecon and call only at Pontipridd south of Merthyr, using the route to Cardiff Central that avoids Queen Street (2 or 3 trains per day each way) and a Llanduddno - Cardiff (2 each way) via Wrexham and the Newport route (as with present WAG express).

The Swansea - Milford (mentioned earlier) and Swansea - Pembroke would be all-stations trains and eventually become hourly to Pembroke Dock with a portion to Milford in alternate hours and one to Aberaeron in the others.

 

[anthony263]

good idea although i would displace the class 158's saved from the Maesteg - Cheltenham service to work the cambrain line services. as for the Fishgaurd - cardiff express service you could look to see if if any class 165/166 units would be available after the thames valley is electrified and crossrail is up & running. This would depand on the stock being cleared to work along some lines, although it would be safe to say that they would never fit the pembroke dock branch due to them being out of guage for some of the curves & platforms.

According to the WAG the Ebbw Vale - Newport service will take 45 minutes (There is a possibility if the marches line is electrified that this service could run to Abergavenny, thus helping to speed up Cardiff - Manchester/holyhead service)

Any spare class 150's should be used to to increase Swansea - Llandeilo-Llandrindod - Shrewsbury service to every 3 hours with some additional Shrewsbury - Llandrindod workings at peak times with at least 3 trains exteneded through to Crewe.

Maybe Gowerton could be re-doubled or a loop installed at Gowerton to enable a higher frequency of trains along that section.

If a service is run on the Swansea disctrit line then new stations should be opened at Morriston ( near to the Swansea metro FTR route enabling links to Morriston Hospital etc) & at Llandacry which should take some traffic off the M4

 

[Rhydgaled]

good idea although i would displace the class 158's saved from the Maesteg - Cheltenham service to work the cambrain line services. as for the Fishgaurd - cardiff express service you could look to see if if any class 165/166 units would be available.......

No thanks, for the same reason as 150s, the doors are in the wrong place. Has to be 158s for the Fishguard district line expresses, I think there might be enough for the Cambrian to go hourly anyway.

[qoute]Any spare class 150's should be used to to increase Swansea - Llandeilo-Llandrindod - Shrewsbury service to every 3 hours with some additional Shrewsbury - Llandrindod workings at peak times with at least 3 trains exteneded through to Crewe.[/quote]Again, 150 doors = wrong place. I would have the present 4 (or proposed 5) all-stations HOWL trains, for which 150s would be ok because of the frequent stops (ditto Pembroke branch and Swansea - Milford stoppers). I would then increase the frequency at the main stations along the HOWL to as near as possible every 2-hours by using 156s, 155s or 153 pairs on limited-stop HOWL services.

If a service is run on the Swansea disctrit line then new stations should be opened at Morriston ( near to the Swansea metro FTR route enabling links to Morriston Hospital etc) & at Llandacry which should take some traffic off the M4

I'd have stations on the District Line (Morriston and Pontlliw, and possibly a Llansamlet Low Level in the tunnel beneath the Swanline station with a lift up but that's probablly impossible to build), but not stop the west Wales expresses there. Instead the aforementioned Swansea valley lines network (which would radiate from Swansea docks) would serve them.

 

[tbtc]

The "Greater Cardiff" area, are you including Swansea in that? There are some similar valleys radiating from Swansea, however unlike Cardiff their railways have all been lifited or reduced to freight-only

The point I was making is that the "Valley Lines" can be run as a self contained "metro" system. For the purposes of this I'm not talking the GWML/ Maesteg/ Ebbw Vale/ Newport/ Swansea.

Electrifying routes make a lot more sense when its on a self contained set of "frequent" services, otherwise you get diesels running under the wires for long stretches (spoiling the cost/benefit ratio) or end up having links chopped.

For that reason, electrifying the Valleys makes a lot more sense than doing the GWML. Also, EMUs should be able to cope with the gradients easier than Pacers/ 150s.

I know the consensus seems to be "wire the GWML, then do the Valleys afterwards". The point I was trying to make is that the Valleys should be done first (regardless of whether the Severn Tunnel is ever wired)

 

[sprinterguy]

The point I was making is that the "Valley Lines" can be run as a self contained "metro" system. For the purposes of this I'm not talking the GWML/ Maesteg/ Ebbw Vale/ Newport/ Swansea.

Electrifying routes make a lot more sense when its on a self contained set of "frequent" services, otherwise you get diesels running under the wires for long stretches (spoiling the cost/benefit ratio) or end up having links chopped.

For that reason, electrifying the Valleys makes a lot more sense than doing the GWML. Also, EMUs should be able to cope with the gradients easier than Pacers/ 150s.

I know the consensus seems to be "wire the GWML, then do the Valleys afterwards". The point I was trying to make is that the Valleys should be done first (regardless of whether the Severn Tunnel is ever wired)

I agree that the Valley lines should be electrified ahead of the Great Western main line. The self-contained core network should be electrified first, as it means that all trains running under the wires will be electric, and offers increased passenger capacity whilst replacing the Pacers. I’d then say that Ebbw Vale to Maesteg should be electrified, as once that is done it increases the case for electrifying the South Wales main line in addition to the GWML, as there would only be two comparatively small infill schemes between Filton Junction-Ebbw Junction (Newport) and Bridgend-Swansea to be completed in order to link Cardiff and Swansea into the GWML Bristol electrification.

Even without an extension of GWML electrification into Wales, the self-contained Valley lines network already has a stand alone justification of its' own for electrification of all the local services.

 

[tbtc]

I agree that the Valley lines should be electrified ahead of the Great Western main line. The self-contained core network should be electrified first, as it means that all trains running under the wires will be electric, and offers increased passenger capacity whilst replacing the Pacers. I’d then say that Ebbw Vale to Maesteg should be electrified, as once that is done it increases the case for electrifying the South Wales main line in addition to the GWML, as there would only be two comparatively small infill schemes between Filton Junction-Ebbw Junction (Newport) and Bridgend-Swansea to be completed in order to link Cardiff and Swansea into the GWML Bristol electrification.

Even without an extension of GWML electrification into Wales, the self-contained Valley lines network already has a stand alone justification of its' own for electrification of all the local services.

I agree with all of that. I'd see Ebbw Vale to Maesteg as "stage two", possibly with an increased order for EMUs for the "stage one" electrification (loadings should increase for a three coach EMU compared to the half-sized Pacers that run some duties)

If they are clever they can do it in self-contained stages, with each completed part enhancing the business case for the next one (in the way that wiring Manchester - Bolton - Preston - Blackpool will improve the cost/benefit ratio of wiring Bolton - Wigan - Southport/Kirkby).

Do one thing well, let people see that it works, create a "we want it too" demand from the other areas, extend it piece by piece...

 

[sprinterguy]

I agree with all of that. I'd see Ebbw Vale to Maesteg as "stage two", possibly with an increased order for EMUs for the "stage one" electrification (loadings should increase for a three coach EMU compared to the half-sized Pacers that run some duties)

If they are clever they can do it in self-contained stages, with each completed part enhancing the business case for the next one (in the way that wiring Manchester - Bolton - Preston - Blackpool will improve the cost/benefit ratio of wiring Bolton - Wigan - Southport/Kirkby).

Do one thing well, let people see that it works, create a "we want it too" demand from the other areas, extend it piece by piece...

Yup, couldn’t have put it better myself