• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Electrification Voltage Upgrades and Bi Modes

Status
Not open for further replies.

apk55

Member
Joined
7 Jul 2011
Messages
446
Location
Altrincham
I would expect all modern multi voltage locomotives/multiple units to have a system detecting relay connected directly to the pantograph that would select the appropriate mode and prevent the wrong mode being selected. If it is uncertain about which system then it would take the fail safe route and drop out all
Most DC systems can have considerable voltage variation, for 1500V systems the voltage could vary between 900V and 1800V and the equipment has to be designed to cope with this. One problem I have heard about is a voltage surge caused by a high powered train suddenly switching off on a weak section (ie far from a substation) and the voltage suddenly rises by 20 or 30%. Another train on the section with old style switched resistance control (Camshaft or contractor) wold see the motor current suddenly rise maybe enough to trip overloads. (Modern electronically controlled trains would not suffer from this problem as the the equipment can respond quickly to voltage changes)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

linuxlad7

Member
Joined
9 Nov 2017
Messages
132
I would expect all modern multi voltage locomotives/multiple units to have a system detecting relay connected directly to the pantograph that would select the appropriate mode and prevent the wrong mode being selected. If it is uncertain about which system then it would take the fail safe route and drop out all
Most DC systems can have considerable voltage variation, for 1500V systems the voltage could vary between 900V and 1800V and the equipment has to be designed to cope with this. One problem I have heard about is a voltage surge caused by a high powered train suddenly switching off on a weak section (ie far from a substation) and the voltage suddenly rises by 20 or 30%. Another train on the section with old style switched resistance control (Camshaft or contractor) wold see the motor current suddenly rise maybe enough to trip overloads. (Modern electronically controlled trains would not suffer from this problem as the the equipment can respond quickly to voltage changes)

hmm cautionary tale ... the local domestic power comes tnto our village ( Thornbury South Glos) ...at 3 phase 11kv. but 1 phase went intermittent the other day and and didn't trip cleanly - hot wires flouescents and leds have different turn on at different thesholds it would appear - so for about an hour we had a brown-out walking its way round the village
 

Railperf

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
3,683
For good reason, the French did not attempt to convert their 1.5KV DC network to 25KV AC. Instead, as mentioned earlier, they tended to electrify new sections of track with 25KV AC and use dual voltage loco's. I expect cost was a major issue. probably cheaper to by a fleet of dual voltage loco's. Still there are plenty of places where for operational reasons new electrification was continued in 1.5KV DC - the Tours LGV bypass being one example. It was more advantageous to electrify this with 1.5KV DC, so that any 1.5KV DC only locos could use this as well as TGV's which were dual voltage. it must be remembered that the Sud Ouest lines run many services with 1.5KV DC only loco's and units.
As we know with new electrification schemes - the infrastructure seems to be the most expensive part of the whole system.
 

Crisso

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2012
Messages
45
Reading the foregoing, where the French were and are quite happy to leave many miles of 1.5KV DC in place to this day, I was always surprised that B.R. insisted on converting the former G.E.R. lines out of Liverpool Street from D.C. to A.C. I'm sure I read somewhere that at the time, a former Manager of the Region said it would have been simpler to leave it as it was, especially with the original fires/explosions, etc., on the newly electrified A.C. North East London Routes. The only extensions for many years, apart from the LTSR, were relatively short ones from Chelmsford to Clacton and Walton and eventually Braintree. As we have seen in retrospect, in more recent years with extensions to Norwich and Cambridge/Kings Lynn, switchover points from D.C. to A.C., could have been implemented at say, Bishops Stortford; Colchester and; near Stratford (the latter for access to the North London Line).
I realise of course, the advantages of high voltage A.C. electrification for longer/high speed routes, etc., but, the former G.E.R. lines OHLE has been updated progressively over the years from 1.5KV DC to 6.25KV AC to 25KV AC - all weakening and changing the original construction and now, a lot of the structures and wiring is being replaced - not with the aesthetically pleasing Mark 3a structures used on the Preston-Glasgow scheme but, with the current visually grotesque seemingly over engineered gantries, similar to those being used on the former GWR Electrification scheme. Along with extra Neutral Sections being needed (Kelvedon for one), I start to wonder about the 'overwhelming' advantages of AC electrification on the smaller scale of network?

Another separate Electrification question - since it was the Germans whom initiated research into high voltage industrial AC electrification, which the French discovered within their occupation zone at the end of the Second World War - why didn't the West Germans themselves introduce it for their major post war electrification schemes but instead, continued with 15KV 16-2/3 cycles?
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
16,029
Location
St Albans
Reading the foregoing, where the French were and are quite happy to leave many miles of 1.5KV DC in place to this day, I was always surprised that B.R. insisted on converting the former G.E.R. lines out of Liverpool Street from D.C. to A.C. I'm sure I read somewhere that at the time, a former Manager of the Region said it would have been simpler to leave it as it was, especially with the original fires/explosions, etc., on the newly electrified A.C. North East London Routes. The only extensions for many years, apart from the LTSR, were relatively short ones from Chelmsford to Clacton and Walton and eventually Braintree. As we have seen in retrospect, in more recent years with extensions to Norwich and Cambridge/Kings Lynn, switchover points from D.C. to A.C., could have been implemented at say, Bishops Stortford; Colchester and; near Stratford (the latter for access to the North London Line).
The decision to change from 1500VDC to 25kV ac was part of the 1955 modernisation plan. The plans for electrification were probably much more ambitious than what actually got done in the '50s & '60s so to plan for a single compatible (ac) system wasn't unreasonable. The decision to use 6.25kV ac for former DC lines was a sensible given the limited clearances encountered. The provision of dual ac voltage rolling stock was not really a problem as the LNER designed Shenfield stock and the BR Southend stock had relatively few troubles changing over. So was the case of most of the new ac EMUs. The problem was that the small proportion that did get in a mess created operational havoc both through shortages and disrupting other mainline traffic.Of course like the frustrated electrification plans of the last 10 years, hindsight is a great thing. I wonder how the widespread use of bi-modes using diesel now will be considered in future years. Gerald Fiennes was charged with running an intensive electric commuter railway. Failure of the electification of his lines was a problem to him, but there's no gaurantee that an ac/DC railway would have been better.
I realise of course, the advantages of high voltage A.C. electrification for longer/high speed routes, etc., but, the former G.E.R. lines OHLE has been updated progressively over the years from 1.5KV DC to 6.25KV AC to 25KV AC - all weakening and changing the original construction and now, a lot of the structures and wiring is being replaced - not with the aesthetically pleasing Mark 3a structures used on the Preston-Glasgow scheme but, with the current visually grotesque seemingly over engineered gantries, similar to those being used on the former GWR Electrification scheme. Along with extra Neutral Sections being needed (Kelvedon for one), I start to wonder about the 'overwhelming' advantages of AC electrification on the smaller scale of network?
The original GE DC OLE had a heavier contact wire because the current for a given power was over 16x the equivalent with ac. It was also the practice to use fixed-tension wires as well as compound catenary on mainlines. This combination required massive strength in gantries where the wire sections were terminated, (the 'A framed' ones some of which are still in use). The system performed very badly in hot weather causing much disruption through sagging and consequential dewirement. The 1960 sections, (beyond Chelmsford) used weight tensioning which compensated for the temperature range. The latest rewire has used F&F type parts, that are similar in appearance to the GWR in that better registration is maintained and potentially better reliability. The flimsy MKIII with it's headspans might look less obtrusive, but experience on the ECML has been of poor reliability. That's why the current round of new OLE is using more substantial hardware where function takes precedent over form. The 'network' you refer to is now continuous from Norwich to Glasgow via London, Birmingham and the north-west, rather than the fragmented bits of the '50s and '60s.
Another separate Electrification question - since it was the Germans whom initiated research into high voltage industrial AC electrification, which the French discovered within their occupation zone at the end of the Second World War - why didn't the West Germans themselves introduce it for their major post war electrification schemes but instead, continued with 15KV 16-2/3 cycles?
Much of the German network was already electrified before WW2. By then, the railways there (DR) not only had many route kilometres wit electric services, those lines were fed by a network of power stations and converter stations, so providing the 16 2/3 Hz was not a problem. Since the '80s, development in traction systems have made the power supply voltage and type irrelevant as mostly, all traction control electronics is fed from a DC bus.
 

Pigeon

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2015
Messages
1,123
I realise of course, the advantages of high voltage A.C. electrification for longer/high speed routes, etc....

The real advantage is on high power routes, so an intensive suburban service with lots of trains repeatedly accelerating hard from rest definitely qualifies.

Also, operationally, the fewer incompatible systems you have and the less intermingled they are, the easier things get. See also the SR converting the LBSC to third rail so that it was the same as the LSW and SE networks on either side of it. Particularly important in the days when multi-voltage operation was difficult except in the case of switching between different AC voltages; also in cases where multiple pickups are required as well as multiple voltages.

(There are cab ride videos on youtube of AC/DC EMUs going round the North London line; the pantograph is up and down like a tart's drawers, and all the freights coming the other way are diesel...)
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
The 'network' you refer to is now continuous from Norwich to Glasgow via London, Birmingham and the north-west, rather than the fragmented bits of the '50s and '60s.
Also to just outside Marseille...
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,637
Location
Nottingham
Much of the German network was already electrified before WW2. By then, the railways there (DR) not only had many route kilometres wit electric services, those lines were fed by a network of power stations and converter stations, so providing the 16 2/3 Hz was not a problem. Since the '80s, development in traction systems have made the power supply voltage and type irrelevant as mostly, all traction control electronics is fed from a DC bus.
Even before traction electronics it was relatively easy to provide DC and AC capability by feeding a basically DC design from a transformer, and to provide multiple voltages at the same frequency via separate tappings on a trainformer. But would a loco equipped for two AC frequencies have had to have two separate transformers in the past, and if so is this still the case today? As the transformer is one of the largest items in an electric loco then having two would have been a big weight and cost penalty.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
16,029
Location
St Albans
The real advantage is on high power routes, so an intensive suburban service with lots of trains repeatedly accelerating hard from rest definitely qualifies.
If we are still talking about the GEML, then that alone is not just an intensive suburban service. It is also an intensive outer-suburban service, i.e. Ipswich and Clacton/Walton, are full length 100mph trains which run in tight paths. Low voltage DC imposes limits on modern rolling stock's performance, particularly with acceleration which with high density services has both capital impacts with power supplies and rolling stock. Any attempt to retain ancient (in British terms) electrification sytems, especially islands of low voltage creates operational complications and unnecesary technical issues.
Also, operationally, the fewer incompatible systems you have and the less intermingled they are, the easier things get. See also the SR converting the LBSC to third rail so that it was the same as the LSW and SE networks on either side of it. Particularly important in the days when multi-voltage operation was difficult except in the case of switching between different AC voltages; also in cases where multiple pickups are required as well as multiple voltages.

(There are cab ride videos on youtube of AC/DC EMUs going round the North London line; the pantograph is up and down like a tart's drawers, and all the freights coming the other way are diesel...)
The NLL is an enabling line connecting several diverse mainlines. I would suspect a gradual change to make all but the links directly into the 'southern' DC area to 25kV ac. Otherwise, we will see diesel traction on freight running through an almost copletely electric London network, (there's little chance of running much heavy freight with DC capable locos). As for the rest of the connected ac network, (my Norwich to Glasgow), there are several suburban networks contained within that (GEML*, Euston-Tring, West Midlands, Manchester*/Liverpool lines and Glasgow* suburban lines. To require every train passing through those areas to be dual ac, or ac/DC would be an expensive complication.
* these areas have used dual ac voltage trains and the GEML and GC route in Manchester have both been 1500VDC in their time.
 
Last edited:

Beebman

Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
966
Location
Twyford
I've seen some references on European railway forums of CFL dual-voltage loco 3001 being fried beyond repair in January 2000 at Kautenbach station in the north of Luxembourg when 3kV DC was incorrectly selected instead of 25kV AC. I've never though been able to find a photo of it, although apparently it was used as a 'christmas tree' for spares until being finally scrapped in 2012.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,637
Location
Nottingham
A transformer is a big coil so if I remember my physics correctly it has low impedence at DC. The wire in the coil is also sized to carry the AC traction current which is much less than a DC system can provide without tripping out. Therefore I suspect applying a reasonable DC voltage to a transformer primary (even if it's much less than the intended AC voltage) would start melting copper.
 

HowardGWR

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2013
Messages
4,981
A transformer is a big coil so if I remember my physics correctly it has low impedence at DC. The wire in the coil is also sized to carry the AC traction current which is much less than a DC system can provide without tripping out. Therefore I suspect applying a reasonable DC voltage to a transformer primary (even if it's much less than the intended AC voltage) would start melting copper.
I had to look up impedence, (turned out to be impedance) and was delighted to discover that I had actually remembered what it was. It's how much it resists the alternating current. I suppose that's what causes the copper to melt? My challenge with physics is that I can spell the words, but don't know what they mean.

Many thanks to you for explaining it all.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,637
Location
Nottingham
I had to look up impedence, (turned out to be impedance) and was delighted to discover that I had actually remembered what it was. It's how much it resists the alternating current. I suppose that's what causes the copper to melt? My challenge with physics is that I can spell the words, but don't know what they mean.

Many thanks to you for explaining it all.
The amount of heat produced depends on the impedance multiplied the square of the current. Keeping the voltage the same, if you halve the impedance the current will double so the amount of heat will also double (half multiplied by two squared). So actually less impedance means more heat in some situations.

But the other complication is that a thinner wire in the transformer will have more impedance so less heat, but is also more likely to melt.
 

daveshah

Member
Joined
1 Sep 2018
Messages
115
The issue here is not actually impedance, as this is the fault condition of a transformer being connected to DC (impedance is only meaningful with AC), but straightforward resistance. An ideal transformer has a DC resistance of 0 ohms (ie a short circuit). Of course as discussed a real transformer has metal windings with non zero resistance that will heat up very quickly (but I suspect in some cases not draw enough current to immediately trip a breaker either).
 

hooverboy

On Moderation
Joined
12 Oct 2017
Messages
1,373
The issue here is not actually impedance, as this is the fault condition of a transformer being connected to DC (impedance is only meaningful with AC), but straightforward resistance. An ideal transformer has a DC resistance of 0 ohms (ie a short circuit). Of course as discussed a real transformer has metal windings with non zero resistance that will heat up very quickly (but I suspect in some cases not draw enough current to immediately trip a breaker either).
transformers work mainly by creating eddy currents in the metal core between the coils of wire.The structure and composition of the core needs to be optimised for whatever frequency the thing is working at to get best power transfer.
In radio electronics/rf the composition of the material is decided by resonant frequency....in stuff like antennas....the composition,width,length and so on is calculated to create a standing wave in the antenna(which has nowhere else to go out but horizontally-through magnetism)

.so straight answer is yes,if you are going to be really pedantic about power electronics between 16.5 and 50Hz/60Hz.transformer construction does play a part, but it is nowhere near as critical in terms of impedance as when you start playing with this type of stuff in an RF/microwave capacity.
to put it bluntly, a full cycle of 50hz has a wavelength of several hundred miles.(3*10^8m/s divided by 50)
your 3g phone at 1800mhz has a wavelength of about a foot.
so start playing around with phase into that mix and you'll start seeing how critical matches and distances(and component leads/lags) between points starts to get.
 

Pigeon

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2015
Messages
1,123
transformers work mainly by creating eddy currents in the metal core between the coils of wire.

No they do not! Eddy currents in the core represent loss and you want to minimise them as much as possible. That's why transformers have cores made of a stack of laminations instead of a solid chunk of iron. The laminations are oriented with their minimum-area cross section perpendicular to the magnetic field to minimise the area available for eddy currents to circulate in. The higher the frequency the smaller the area needs to be, so as the design frequency rises first thinner laminations are used, then powdered iron, and then non-conductive magnetic materials like ferrite.

Even before traction electronics it was relatively easy to provide DC and AC capability by feeding a basically DC design from a transformer, and to provide multiple voltages at the same frequency via separate tappings on a trainformer. But would a loco equipped for two AC frequencies have had to have two separate transformers in the past, and if so is this still the case today? As the transformer is one of the largest items in an electric loco then having two would have been a big weight and cost penalty.

The size of a transformer core is determined by the need to avoid magnetic saturation. All else being equal, the flux in the core is inversely proportional to the operating frequency, so the lower the frequency, the larger the core has to be to handle the flux without saturating. A transformer designed for 16.67Hz will therefore be three times the size of an equivalent transformer designed for 50Hz. It can still be used at 50Hz, despite being overlarge - the other way round of course does not work. If you're specifically designing it for both frequencies then the overall size of the core will be as for 16.67Hz, and the thickness of the laminations (see above) will be as for 50Hz. But you perfectly well can do this, and you don't need two separate transformers.

The amount of heat produced depends on the impedance multiplied the square of the current. Keeping the voltage the same, if you halve the impedance the current will double so the amount of heat will also double (half multiplied by two squared).

The impedance of a transformer has two components: resistive, which depends on the length and thickness of the wire, and inductive, which depends on the inductance and the operating frequency. The heat produced in the windings depends on the resistive component multiplied by current squared.

The resistive component is made as small as possible; ideally it would be 0. The inductive component is zero at DC. So if a transformer is connected to a DC voltage source, the current is determined only by the very small resistive impedance; it is accordingly very large, and something goes bang, hopefully just the circuit breaker but you never know...

If a transformer, with no load on it, is connected to an AC voltage source of the appropriate frequency, the inductive component is much larger than the resistive component, so it is almost entirely the inductive component which determines the current and the current is small. The heat generated in the primary is the square of this small current multiplied by the resistive impedance.

As (resistive) load is applied to the transformer secondary, it appears as a resistive impedance, with a value of the load resistance multiplied by the turns ratio, in parallel with the unloaded primary impedance. The transformer therefore draws from the supply an additional current equal to the secondary current divided by the turns ratio. The heat generated in the primary is the square of the sum of this current and the essentially constant no-load current, multiplied by the resistive component of the primary impedance; heat is also generated in the secondary, according to the square of the secondary current multiplied by the resistive component of the secondary impedance.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top