Electrification time scales update (North West)

[cle]

Are there any plans to increase these (EPS) speeds, given that plans are for most London Glasgows to be first stop Preston?

How much would actually be saved?
Do Virgin WC still have designs on reducing Glasgow journey times?

 

[snail]

Well the current 1630 ex Euston is timed at 2 hours to Preston, saving around 11 minutes over services that stop at Warrington and Wigan.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are there any plans to increase these (EPS) speeds, given that plans are for most London Glasgows to be first stop Preston?
How much would actually be saved?
Do Virgin WC still have designs on reducing Glasgow journey times?

Some work was deleted out of the original WCRM programme.
You often get a vague "line speed increases" item in NR's plans, but not the detail of where it is or how much.
They did a lot of work on the WCML around Wigan this year on junctions, but the main line speeds stayed the same.

Well the current 1630 ex Euston is timed at 2 hours to Preston, saving around 11 minutes over services that stop at Warrington and Wigan.

The next posted increase in line speeds will come when the Watford and Norton Bridge work is finished around 2016/17.
At Norton Bridge the main line should go up from 90mph (with 50 recently imposed on the Up) to 125.

 

[cle]

Well the current 1630 ex Euston is timed at 2 hours to Preston, saving around 11 minutes over services that stop at Warrington and Wigan.

Yes but the line speeds remain the same.

Will Watford go up to 125? Good luck increasing any stopping there! It's currently 80-90?

Hopefully they'll pass on the savings, rather than absorb them into padding/timetable lies.

Anything planned for north of Lancaster/Oxenholme? That's quite a slow section.

 

[edwin_m]

I think the speed at Wigan would be quite difficult to increase, given that it is in a built-up area and with the bridge over the Wallgate line. HS2 commissioned the design of an extension from Golborne to north of Preston, but the Government decided not to include it in the phase 2 network.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Yes but the line speeds remain the same.

Will Watford go up to 125? Good luck increasing any stopping there! It's currently 80-90?
.

The speed on the fast lines through Watford Jct is currently 110mph with a semi permanent TSR (Temporary speed restriction) of 80 mph on the up fast. I believe it will eventually be 125?!!?

 

[westv]

So the 30 min journey reduction I saw for Hull to London is pie in the sky then?

 

[YorkshireBear]

So the 30 min journey reduction I saw for Hull to London is pie in the sky then?

THe WCML is being discussed above?

 

[Nym]

So the 30 min journey reduction I saw for Hull to London is pie in the sky then?

It's possible today anyway, just don't stop anywhere...

 

[deltic08]

I don't agree with your assumption of £6 million per double track mile electrification cost. GWML electrification was authorised on the basis that single track mile electrification would be no more than £750k using the factory trains.
The Harrogate Loop has recently been costed at £93 million for 65 single track miles but with four tunnels one of which is over two miles long, four substantial viaducts and 19 overbridges between Leeds and Harrogate alone, the civils part is greater than the average 45% of costs. One feeder station and one section cabin have been included in case the feeder stations at Kirkstall and Poppleton have insufficient capacity.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't agree with your assumption of £6 million per double track mile electrification cost. GWML electrification was authorised on the basis that single track mile electrification would be no more than £750k using the factory trains.
The Harrogate Loop has recently been costed at £93 million for 65 single track miles but with four tunnels one of which is over two miles long, four substantial viaducts and 19 overbridges between Leeds and Harrogate alone, the civils part is greater than the average 45% of costs. One feeder station and one section cabin have been included in case the feeder stations at Kirkstall and Poppleton have insufficient capacity.

I was only quoting the DfT's cost estimate for Lostock-Wigan in the press release. It's a pretty simple route.
The overall NW scheme is usually quoted at £400 million for pretty much 100 double track route miles, so that is £4m per mile.
However there are some complex sections such as through Manchester Victoria.
Factory trains are all very well, but they are only being used on main lines.
The recent GW Airport Jn-Maidenhead wiring contract (Balfour Beatty) is £64m for 12.5 miles of quad track, or £1.28m per stm.

 

[The Planner]

Will Watford go up to 125? Good luck increasing any stopping there! It's currently 80-90?

No, it is 110mph now (not including the TSR) and stays 110mph after.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its always a bit hard to estimate wiring costs from a Government announcement because you dont know what track realignment, structures/junction alteration or even passing loops in some cases have also been thrown into the project.

 

[joeykins82]

I'm surprised that Bradford Interchange to Leeds isn't listed as a potential project under consideration; it strikes me as the sort of low hanging infill scheme that'd make sense for freeing up DMUs etc. With Leeds to York and Selby electrification confirmed it'd allow Northern to run electric Bradford Interchange to Selby/York stoppers and cut the diesel services back to Bradford

 

[BantamMenace]

With the little to no technical knowledge I possess I'd imagine bradford interchange would be a nightmare to electrify

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm surprised that Bradford Interchange to Leeds isn't listed as a potential project under consideration; it strikes me as the sort of low hanging infill scheme that'd make sense for freeing up DMUs etc. With Leeds to York and Selby electrification confirmed it'd allow Northern to run electric Bradford Interchange to Selby/York stoppers and cut the diesel services back to Bradford

But they will be able to do that from Forster Square without any new wiring.
I would have thought extending some of the Skipton/Bradford/Ilkley services east of Leeds is a shoe-in after TP wiring.
I imagine the future Interchange solution is bound up with the Calder Valley as a whole - all or nothing.
Would you really want to cut off Halifax and Hebden Bridge from through services to Leeds?
Hardly any NT services terminate at Interchange at the moment.

 

[tbtc]

I'm surprised that Bradford Interchange to Leeds isn't listed as a potential project under consideration; it strikes me as the sort of low hanging infill scheme that'd make sense for freeing up DMUs etc. With Leeds to York and Selby electrification confirmed it'd allow Northern to run electric Bradford Interchange to Selby/York stoppers and cut the diesel services back to Bradford

No real point if you aren't going to wire through to Rochdale and Manchester Victoria (since nothing terminates at Bradford Interchange - apart from the magical mystery tour GC services that go nowhere near Leeds).

I certainly can't see many votes in telling people from Halifax/ Hebden Bridge etc that they are losing their direct service to Leeds.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I certainly can't see many votes in telling people from Halifax/ Hebden Bridge etc that they are losing their direct service to Leeds.

But surely the Hebden Bridge rail travellers will still be served by the Blackpool North to York services to give them direct services to Leeds.

 

[tbtc]

I'm surprised that Bradford Interchange to Leeds isn't listed as a potential project under consideration; it strikes me as the sort of low hanging infill scheme that'd make sense for freeing up DMUs etc. With Leeds to York and Selby electrification confirmed it'd allow Northern to run electric Bradford Interchange to Selby/York stoppers and cut the diesel services back to Bradford

No real point if you aren't going to wire through to Rochdale and Manchester Victoria (since nothing terminates at Bradford Interchange - apart from the magical mystery tour GC services that go nowhere near Leeds).

I certainly can't see many votes in telling people from Halifax/ Hebden Bridge etc that they are losing their direct service to Leeds.

But surely the Hebden Bridge rail travellers will still be served by the Blackpool North to York services to give them direct services to Leeds.

I was replying to joeykins82's idea of cutting all current diesel services at Bradford Interchange (with passengers transferring there onto an EMU bound for Leeds)...

 

[edwin_m]

I also think electrifying to Bradford Interchange and splitting the service there wouldn't work. You could perhaps terminate the Manchester trains at Interchange but there would need to be through trains from Halifax and Hebden Bridge (possibly via Dewsbury) to Leeds for the commuters. Turfing Leeds passengers out at Interchange would extend journey times and would cause a lot of congestion in the rather cramped area behind the buffer stops unless there was a guaranteed cross-platform interchange with the onward train.

So I think any electrification to Bradford Interchange would have to go at least as far as Halifax, which would bring two long tunnels into the reckoning.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Calder Valley line in general will actually come later than anyone on here would wish. It is simply too complex to wire, from an engineering point of view.

 

[joeykins82]

I suppose that's what comes from making up electrification schemes based on looking at a map rather than the actual routes and passenger flows

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Calder Valley line in general will actually come later than anyone on here would wish. It is simply too complex to wire, from an engineering point of view.

Complex it may well be, but does this mean that this particular route, together with the Preston to Colne route, the Copy Pit route and the Blackburn to Clitheroe route will be seeing only diesel traction for many years to come ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Calder Valley line in general will actually come later than anyone on here would wish. It is simply too complex to wire, from an engineering point of view.

Is that because of clearances or tunnels?
The lines electrified would have to include essentially all the remaining L&Y network east of Manchester/Preston and the south side of Leeds as well as the Halifax route.

You could perhaps begin with Leeds-Wakefield-Barnsley-Sheffield, Bolton-Blackburn-Clitheroe, and Preston-Blackburn-Burnley-Colne, and maybe Victoria-Rochdale.
But then you would have to do the core route Victoria/Burnley-Hebden Bridge-Leeds/Wakefield in one go.
Otherwise you don't get the network benefits and there will still be too many DMUs running under the wires.

A lot depends on what the Rail North priorities are.
Blackburn, Burnley, Barnsley and Halifax will have to demand electric trains (Bradford already has some).

 

[Joseph_Locke]

No, it is 110mph now (not including the TSR) and stays 110mph after.

A pound on the latter statement?

 

[Chris125]

Unsurprisingly this talk of a 'task force' looking into further electrification isn't as exciting as it initially sounded - this article from the Hull Daily Mail quotes Stephen Hammond as saying...

"That task force is looking at lines for electrification post-2019".

Chris

 

[Eagle]

We basically already knew that. Network Rail say that the existing slate of electrification projects will take them well beyond the end of CP5 (2014-2019), so anything additional has got to be well into CP6.

 

[snowball]

However the announcement about Bolton-Wigan says 2017. Presumably because

(a) it's short

(b) it represents follow-on work for the north-west team, whose commitments ended with phases 4 and 5 (Manchester to Preston and Stalybridge) in December 2016 (plus the as yet unconfirmed Windermere).

 

[Chris125]

We basically already knew that. Network Rail say that the existing slate of electrification projects will take them well beyond the end of CP5 (2014-2019), so anything additional has got to be well into CP6.

Of course, but the announcement that this task force would "report to the Transport Secretary within 12 months on the acceleration of further rail electrification schemes in the North of England", at the same time as extra wiring was announced, clearly intended to gave a different impression.

It's a good thing I wasn't expecting anything!

Chris

 

[The Planner]

A pound on the latter statement?

Most definitely, I will be able to give it to you from the vast amount of money we pay and new orifice that Virgin will tear us if we don't deliver it.