Electrically hauled freight

[MarkWi72]

The other night, my father and I got into a conversation about electrically hauled freight on WCML and it's branches. He'd been going through some old photographs and had quite a few on the Trent Valley and at Stafford (sometimes Rugby) with electric freights. Some were oil tanks, others Speedlink and Freightliner. I also recall BOC tanks being electrically hauled. In the mid 80s it was usually 81s or 85s, with a few by 86s. I remember a few Friday nights at Stafford with a fair number of electrically hauled freights. Most diesel hauled frieght (20s/25s/40s/47/56s/58s)was engineer, Speedlinks or MGRs. But I recall a lot of the TV frieghts being electric and Brum line ones diesel as they crossed to 'diesel' lines later in the journey.

We lived near Dudley Port, and my Dad has a photo (dated around 1967) of an 86 in the sidings at the Albion oil depot (later only diésel hauled tanks there by 80s). He said the steel depot at Wolverhampton also had OLE.

Majority of WCML freights and freightliners are now 66 or 70 hauled. Seems odd at a time of climate anxiety and poor air quality that we should see so many diesels under the wires. I know they are much cleaner now, but you'd expect more 'leccy' hauled freight. Some are under the wires for the duration of journeys. Is it a lack of locos as most passenger is DMU/EMU now? Journeys more cross country?

 

[Class 170101]

Electricity prices have made flows less profitable with Class 90s than 66s.

However of late Class 90s have returned to operation between Ipswich and WCML destinations.

 

[InOban]

I always thought that the problem was that the electric locos were lightweight and geared for passenger operations. They lacked either the grunt or the adhesion to haul modern heavy freights. While the 66s and 70 can haul 2000t over Shap, if slowly. I think it's for this reason that electric locos are often used in pairs.

 

[MarkWi72]

Yes I noticed the Felixstowe - WCML services had recently been taken over by 86s and 90s. And now the 88s are the main traction for freightliner/intermodal. It is interesting to see how that has developed. An electric freight loco is required , or more 88s.

 

[ExRes]

Yes I noticed the Felixstowe - WCML services had recently been taken over by 86s and 90s. And now the 88s are the main traction for freightliner/intermodal. It is interesting to see how that has developed. An electric freight loco is required , or more 88s.

Not sure what you mean about the WCML, all the 86s were withdrawn some months ago and replaced by 90s

 

[MarkWi72]

I know, probably 11/12 motnhs ago, wasn't it, although not all scrapped and it was rumoured they may be put back in service. I meant "recently" as being, the last decade!

 

[Spartacus]

There can't have been more private yards wired, and those that were I imagine would have had to have got rid when they moved to more efficiently loading and unloading, such as containers or cranes.

For many years BR had a policy of using electrics under the wires wherever practical (I think there might have been a minimum mileage). Post steam, when loco changes were necessary and part of the normal scene nobody say any issues, and thought surely using electric had to be more efficient but in later BR days it was discovered to be potentially terribly wasteful as there could often be locos sat around idle for hours and hours, sometimes days, just waiting for the services coming off the wires, and all the associated costs involved. It was often cheaper to use one diesel loco throughout than diesel - electric - diesel, it was usually quicker too, electric performance not being able to compensate for the time lost coming off the main line, into a yard, changing locos, then coming back out again.

 

[Mag_seven]

Electricity prices have made flows less profitable with Class 90s than 66s.

However of late Class 90s have returned to operation between Ipswich and WCML destinations.

That has only been a very recent development - there has been a gradual increase in WCML diesel hauled freight over the years compared to the 70s / 80s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I always thought that the problem was that the electric locos were lightweight and geared for passenger operations. They lacked either the grunt or the adhesion to haul modern heavy freights. While the 66s and 70 can haul 2000t over Shap, if slowly. I think it's for this reason that electric locos are often used in pairs.

There are plenty of idle class 92s with enough grunt and adhesion, necessary for the Channel Tunnel gradients.
Use on the sleepers did at least get a few 92s back to work.
Changes at the London container terminals may also generate more electric haulage.

The frequent diesel-hauled coal trains on the WCML (Hunterston-Warrington-West Midlands) are no more, at least.

 

[D365]

I always thought that the problem was that the electric locos were lightweight and geared for passenger operations. They lacked either the grunt or the adhesion to haul modern heavy freights. While the 66s and 70 can haul 2000t over Shap, if slowly. I think it's for this reason that electric locos are often used in pairs.

”Grunt” is definitely not what electrics lack.

 

[MarkWi72]

Could we see more 92s , joining 90s and 88s on freight across WCMLs?

 

[zwk500]

A key issue is the entire diagram - if even one part of it is on non-wired track, you can't use a 90 or 92. Arranging diagrams to stay entirely on electric track if they go to e.g. Southampton or Felixstowe is not exactly an easy task!

Class 92s also have the problem of drawing a vast amount of current, and the return current often can cause issues with track circuits not specifically set up to handle increased electric loads. Others more qualified than me will be able to say which bits of the WCML would need work to accept greater numbers of 92s on Class 4 trains.

 

[MarkWi72]

Didn't the 92s knock out the signals in some areas - I think this was the case on the Stour Valley line (Wolves-Brum).

 

[Grannyjoans]

There are no more 92's on freight on the WCML anymore which means the 66's have taken over. Only Electric hauled freight is 88 and 90 hauled, mainly Intermodals.
90's used to haul freight single headedly but now they seem to be in pairs most of the time. The 88's are almost always single headed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2022 ==

The loss of the "Enterprise" network under EWS reduced the usage of Class 92's considerably. This was one of the main workings they were used on.

 

[Mollman]

A lot of the old electric haulage came from swapping between diesel and electric at places such as Crewe and Bescot - this has been seen as inefficient by modern freight operators with the only place now seeing change over being Ipswich for Felixstowe trains. The replacement of Tilbury by Thames Gateway also led to a loss of electric haulage as that the logical move of electrifying the gateway branch didn't happen. Tilbury 2 might generate some electric haulage again.

In regards to double heading of electric trains this practice is used over the WCML as it means they can maintain a higher speed over Shap and Beattock as well as meaning that if one loco fails then there is a second to keep the train moving. When 88s were not available for the Tesco train DRS had to use pares of 66s and 68s to keep to time.

DB have decided to stop running 92s in the UK except on HS2, this means that some old 92 flows from Dollands Moor to WCML are 66 hauled. DB 90s now seem to be concentrated on Daventry - Mossend and they seem unwilling to bring stored 90s back into service. It appears that the Barking - Garston automotive working that was run by DRS with a mixture of 66s, 68s and 88s, is now run by DB with 66s.

Freightliner now just uses 90s which seem to have seen less use on Felixstowe traffic recently perhaps due to the cost of electricity. 86s might return if the government ever gets around to electrifying some key links. The Thames Gateway branch and Acton Bank would both allow for electric hauled freight but the real game changer is of course Felixstowe - Ely - Peterborough - Leicester - Nuneaton - Birmingham including Hams Hall and Lawley Street terminals, one can only hope.

 

[GB]

DRS still operate the 6X41 and 6X43 Garston-Dagenham services.

 

[childwallblues]

DRS still operate the 6X41 and 6X43 Garston-Dagenham services.

Yes booked for a Class 88. 88004 I think is this week.

 

[59CosG95]

DB have decided to stop running 92s in the UK except on HS2, this means that some old 92 flows from Dollands Moor to WCML are 66 hauled. DB 90s now seem to be concentrated on Daventry - Mossend and they seem unwilling to bring stored 90s back into service. It appears that the Barking - Garston automotive working that was run by DRS with a mixture of 66s, 68s and 88s, is now run by DB with 66s.

I did see, just the other day, that long-term stored 90021 (the last loco in First ScotRail "barbie"), OOU since 2016(!), has gone for a repaint. https://flic.kr/p/2n1Giiu
ISTR that the Daventry-Grangemouth flows (4S49/4M30) have now gone electric too (or at least started to do so). https://flic.kr/p/2n2m6bz

 

[Grannyjoans]

The car trains that go over the North WCML at night (Mossend/Dagenham?) used to be 90-hauled. Now always a 66 for some reason.

I don't think DB use their 90's very much. I think I read once that only a very small number of the fleet are out at any given moment.

If it wasn't for the Sleeper there would be no 92's at all on UK freights. Very different to what I remember in the late 1990's and early 2000's when they were working all sorts of freights on the WCML like "Enterprise", Coal (rakes of 45 HAA's) and Intermodal. The "Enterprises" included all types of goods and often had a mixture of everything.

When EWS changed their direction from expansion to downsizing by Keith Heller (from around 2003 onwards) they started to give up the Enterprise network letting the freight go by road instead. Because it wasn't making enough profit. Then there was the loss of Royal Mail, which also reduced the amount of 86 and 90 hauled freight.

 

[Chris125]

I don't think DB use their 90's very much.

I think they do? There was a lull when the leccy bill went up but they are back and finally working to Grangemouth as well.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I think they do? There was a lull when the leccy bill went up but they are back and finally working to Grangemouth as well.

There wasn't a lull at all. DB haven't used more than 1 pair for years. They stopped using that 1 pair for a few weeks. As for Grangemouth, we'll see how long that lasts. They started using 90s on it early last year with a loco change at Mossend, though they still only used 1 pair per day as 4M25 didn't run for the first 3 months of 2021, and it lasted a few weeks before they reverted to 66s.

 

[43096]

There wasn't a lull at all. DB haven't used more than 1 pair for years. They stopped using that 1 pair for a few weeks. As for Grangemouth, we'll see how long that lasts. They started using 90s on it early last year with a loco change at Mossend, though they still only used 1 pair per day as 4M25 didn't run for the first 3 months of 2021, and it lasted a few weeks before they reverted to 66s.

Really?

So why on Monday were 90024/039 working 4S47 and 90019/020 4M43? Plus another pair (90034/035) presumably awaiting their next working at Mossend.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Yes, really. They use 2 pairs now, as of a few days ago, because they are using a pair on the Grangemouth again, but as I said we'll see how long that lasts.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

In the 70s and 80s there was a lot of electrically hauled freight. I am sure I read somewhere it was policy. Now it is diesel under the wires.

 

[Grannyjoans]

In the 90's there was a very lot of electric hauled freight on the WCML

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2022 ==

In the 70s and 80s there was a lot of electrically hauled freight. I am sure I read somewhere it was policy. Now it is diesel under the wires.

There was in the 90s as well

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There was in the 90s as well

Privatisation I assume changed it?

 

[Grannyjoans]

Privatisation has become more about profits and less about being Green ?

I have seen that all over the freight sector since privatisation.
If it is more profitable to use a Diesel loco on a freight working then that is what will be used.

Switching from Electric to Diesel is one thing. Under privatisation we've seen a lot of switch from Rail to Road.
EWS under Keith Heller was handing back tons of freight flows to the Roads because they were not profitable!
Royal Mail also switched from Rail to Road around the same time because it was cheaper for them.

The only thing that has gone more "Green" is the diesel locos themselves. The 66's are far cleaner than the older diesel locomotives.

 

[zwk500]

Privatisation has become more about profits and less about being Green ?

I have seen that all over the freight sector since privatisation.
If it is more profitable to use a Diesel loco on a freight working then that is what will be used.

Switching from Electric to Diesel is one thing. Under privatisation we've seen a lot of switch from Rail to Road.
EWS under Keith Heller was handing back tons of freight flows to the Roads because they were not profitable!
Royal Mail also switched from Rail to Road around the same time because it was cheaper for them.

The only thing that has gone more "Green" is the diesel locos themselves. The 66's are far cleaner than the older diesel locomotives.

Rail freight was never about being 'green' over profit. Under BR it was more efficient to swap locos because of different traffic patterns (passenger and freight) and the distribution of drivers and locos. Now it's more efficient to have fewer depots concentrated on sites of major traffic. The passenger railway is an entirely separate operational concept now, because what passengers demand and accept has changed.

Getting rid of unprofitable flows has allowed investment in longer and heavier trains on remaining flows, and stimulated investment in more efficient and effective stock. Instead of relying on subsidy and being beholden to the treasury, Freight companies have explored options to grow their business and worked hard to increase traffic. A prime example of this is Royal Mail coming back to the railways. Now they've got Electro-diesel 88s, Battery-electric Shunter Class 12's, and tri-mode hybrid Class 93 proposed. 775m Container trains and 2,400+tonne Aggregate trains are other key areas of growth, despite the loss of the coal traffic due to a government policy decision to reduce carbon output of the electricity generation network.

Without making profit, rail freight would slowly dwindle until it was irrelevant. By focusing on making money to grow the business, it's thriving.

 

[DJH1971]

Didn't the 92s knock out the signals in some areas - I think this was the case on the Stour Valley line (Wolves-Brum).

That was apparently one of the main reasons why their initial entry into service was so heavily delayed.

 

[MarkWi72]

Interesting thread responses (mine and my dad's hunch probably correct in the main) , but especially messages re the growth in the freight traffic market. Certainly, and I have said elsewhere, the majority of freightliners/container trains you see now are longer than their predecessors. Let's hope mote freight goes by rail. HS2 will unlock capacity, hopefully, for that to happen