Electric trains using unelectrified track

[structos]

Has there been any case where an electrified train has ran on non electrified lines without any diesel assistance in passenger use or otherwise? What would warrant such a situation?
For example, if a train were to coast through an area which has had its electricity switched off, or running down a hypothetical very short section of track like a loop, which is unelectrified to avoid a problematic area?

 

[The exile]

A couple of instances in the former East Germany. 1 Electrification ended at the eastern end of the the Berlin Hbf so trains coasted in and their locos had to be dragged out by diesels. 2. Somewhere near an airfield it was discovered that the OHLE interfered with sensitive equipment so there had to be a gap (what Moscow decreed….). At least one train over the years didn’t make it across.

 

[Phil R]

A couple of instances in the former East Germany. 1 Electrification ended at the eastern end of the the Berlin Hbf so trains coasted in and their locos had to be dragged out by diesels. 2. Somewhere near an airfield it was discovered that the OHLE interfered with sensitive equipment so there had to be a gap (what Moscow decreed….). At least one train over the years didn’t make it across.

Good call on old Berlin Hbf. When me and my mates first went there circa 1992, we couldn't get our heads around it, why a gronk was applied to remove it and there was no OHLE. Disingenuous electrification ((c) Ian Walmsley) is not necessarily new!

 

[jfollows]

It’s allowed in the UK and has been for a while, see https://www.rssb.co.uk/research-catalogue/CatalogueItem/S234 (needs registration):

Background​

Coasting is the movement of a train without traction or breaking forces present. It is usually considered for distances of a few dozen metres over extended neutral sections in the OLE.
Previous RSSB research concludes that trains can be operated on longer routes relying on coasting alone but will require a special operating procedure
The main reasons for coasting with the pantograph lowered are:

• Permanent electrical and/or physical gaps in the OLE
• When changing between different electrical supplies in the OLE (eg1.5kV DC to 25kV AC)
• Temporary passage through damages/engineering works to the OLE
• Optimisation of energy consumption

In the UK it is primarily used for options 3 & 4, however option 2 is also common practice in other countries

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s allowed in the UK and has been for a while, see https://www.rssb.co.uk/research-catalogue/CatalogueItem/S234 (needs registration):

Is it in the Rule Book? If it isnt, then it isn't allowed.

 

[Falcon1200]

if a train were to coast through an area which has had its electricity switched off

IIRC when the Cambridge line flyover was being constructed at Hitchin electric trains on the East Coast Main Line coasted through a dead section; On a planned and authorised basis, of course!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

if a train were to coast through an area which has had its electricity switched off,

Technically speaking trains do this thousands of times a day at neutral sections (usually denoted by a loud noise near the pantograph and on some units, phone charging stops working).

I do recall seeing a video of 91s coasting pantograph down at speed.

 

[jfollows]

Is it in the Rule Book? If it isnt, then it isn't allowed.

It’s in the rule book, I believe.

GERT8000-HB16 Iss 6 - AC Electrified Lines

This handbook is for those personnel who need to go on the operational railway in an AC electrified area to carry out their duties, with the exception of a: train driver guard shunter signaller crossing keeper designated person (DP). The personnel listed above will not receive this...

www.rssb.co.uk

10 Arranging coasting under the OLE

If you are the responsible person, when you arrive on site, you must decide whether the object or OLE defect means that trains, including both multi-mode trains and electric trains with the pantographs lowered, can run or continue to run safely through the affected area.

If trains can run or continue to run but with multi-mode trains operating in self-powered mode and electric trains coasting with the pantographs lowered, you must decide whether the driver can easily identify the location. You must take account of the weather conditions and any other factor that may make this difficult.

 

[rd749249]

Taking a wrong route can result in you doing this and losing your pans, as happened to an old colleague of mine

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s in the rule book, I believe.

GERT8000-HB16 Iss 6 - AC Electrified Lines

This handbook is for those personnel who need to go on the operational railway in an AC electrified area to carry out their duties, with the exception of a: train driver guard shunter signaller crossing keeper designated person (DP). The personnel listed above will not receive this...

www.rssb.co.uk

The only reference in the Rule Book is coasting under defective OLE, and is not a normal operating procedure on unelectrified track.

 

[Taunton]

Has there been any case where an electrified train has ran on non electrified lines without any diesel assistance in passenger use or otherwise? What would warrant such a situation?
For example, if a train were to coast through an area which has had its electricity switched off, or running down a hypothetical very short section of track like a loop, which is unelectrified to avoid a problematic area?

It's been used on the GEML, when work is taking place on one pair of tracks, trains have run on the other with the power switched off between Shenfield to nearly Stratford. There was a thread about it here a while ago with some technical detail, and indeed some members had driven it. With initial impetus of descending Brentwood bank, it's then gently downhill all the way. Special signs are erected for it:

Trivia: Longest stretch of coasting on a train in regular passenger service.

There’s no need for me to take anything up with anybody. It’s immediately obvious to me, as a seasoned railwayman, who signs both AC and DC traction, why the suggestion of trains coasting off the juice, via engineering sections, is profoundly nonsensical. The more interesting question is why...

www.railforums.co.uk

At the Italian/Swiss border station, with incompatible overhead electrification (3kV DC/15kV AC), I recall the wires ended on approach, and restarted on the new system at the departure end. Incoming trains lowered their pantographs on approach before their wires ended, and braked to a stop in the platform. A diesel shunter then coupled up to the loco, pulled it forward, and then uncoupled and gave it a mighty shunt at speed, the electric loco then rolling back through the station and coming under its own wires again.

 

[Re6/6]

It's been used on the GEML, when work is taking place on one pair of tracks, trains have run on the other with the power switched off between Shenfield to nearly Stratford. There was a thread about it here a while ago with some technical detail, and indeed some members had driven it. With initial impetus of descending Brentwood bank, it's then gently downhill all the way. Special signs are erected for it:

Trivia: Longest stretch of coasting on a train in regular passenger service.

There’s no need for me to take anything up with anybody. It’s immediately obvious to me, as a seasoned railwayman, who signs both AC and DC traction, why the suggestion of trains coasting off the juice, via engineering sections, is profoundly nonsensical. The more interesting question is why...

www.railforums.co.uk

At the Italian/Swiss border station, with incompatible overhead electrification (3kV DC/15kV AC), I recall the wires ended on approach, and restarted on the new system at the departure end. Incoming trains lowered their pantographs on approach before their wires ended, and braked to a stop in the platform. A diesel shunter then coupled up to the loco, pulled it forward, and then uncoupled and gave it a mighty shunt at speed, the electric loco then rolling back through the station and coming under its own wires again.

The same situation applies at the border station of Modane in the French Alps where Italian locomotives drop their pantographs prior to the place where voltages change from 3000 volts dc to 1500 volt# dc and coast into the station or freight yard and await haulage back to Italian electrified territory.

Again the same applies at Brenner station where the ÖBB, Austrian railways 15kv ac meets the Italian system 3000 volts dc.

 

[321362]

At the Italian/Swiss border station, with incompatible overhead electrification (3kV DC/15kV AC), I recall the wires ended on approach, and restarted on the new system at the departure end. Incoming trains lowered their pantographs on approach before their wires ended, and braked to a stop in the platform. A diesel shunter then coupled up to the loco, pulled it forward, and then uncoupled and gave it a mighty shunt at speed, the electric loco then rolling back through the station and coming under its own wires again.

I believe that was Como San Giovanni, which no longer happens there due to bimodes iirc (or they have small batteries that allow them to exit the station)

 

[Pigeon]

If we extend this to include "closest approaches available before electrification was an option"...

The pipe on the Dalkey atmospheric railway terminated a few hundred metres short of the actual terminus at the upper end. Arriving trains would coast into the station; with departing trains, some poor bugger had to push them by hand until the piston reached the pipe.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Has there been any case where an electrified train has ran on non electrified lines without any diesel assistance

France has examples where the Ligne A Grande Vitesse (LGV) 25kv AC merges with / diverges from other voltages. An example is the LGV Sud-Est route where merging with SNCF's "legacy" 1.5kV DC lihes near Paris Combs-la-Ville. The TGV sets coast for a short distance, all pantographs lowered, through where the 1.5kv DC and 25kv AC swap.

If any of you has (TeleRail or Video 125, I cannot recall which; the legendary David Maxey presented it) a lVHS video of LGV Paris Sud-Est and - then new - Atlantique routes, this video showed a TGV set coasting, pans-down, through the section.

 

[Acathater]

Not quite the same thing but there was that WCML motorail which allegedly lost power somewhere around Tebay / Shap and coated to Lancaster.

 

[357]

It's been used on the GEML, when work is taking place on one pair of tracks, trains have run on the other with the power switched off between Shenfield to nearly Stratford. There was a thread about it here a while ago with some technical detail, and indeed some members had driven it. With initial impetus of descending Brentwood bank, it's then gently downhill all the way. Special signs are erected for it:

I was involved in the testing for that almost 15 years ago now.

Even in the other direction, uphill most of the way, we shut off at Ilford and stopped over the M25.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I do recall seeing a video of 91s coasting pantograph down at speed.

It's been used on the GEML, when work is taking place on one pair of tracks, trains have run on the other with the power

They did it on the ECML a few years ago too, through engineering works. Think, from memory, it was between Huntingdon and Peterborough.

Seem to remember one train getting stuck in the bit with no juice.

 

[southern442]

The internet is your friend...

SNCF:
The most famous and specific location where this occurs at high speed is the transition between the LGV Sud-Est and the classic network near Paris (Combs-la-Ville) and at various junctions where the high-speed tracks merge into the legacy regional lines.
When a TGV moves between these differing electrical systems, it cannot simply "switch" while drawing power, as this would cause a massive electrical arc or damage the train's sensitive power electronics.

That is really interesting, I was just in Paris 2 weeks ago, having a ride on the new cable car, and underneath us saw a TGV with both pantographs down and I thought I was just seeing things! Good to have this confirmed.

 

[Sun Chariot]

That is really interesting, I was just in Paris 2 weeks ago, having a ride on the new cable car, and underneath us saw a TGV with both pantographs down and I thought I was just seeing things! Good to have this confirmed.

Excellent

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I couldn't find the video I was thinking of (was LNER and Azumas were also shown), but found an RMweb thread from 2012 which shows some pantograph down travelling during engineering works.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/54598-running-with-pantograph-down/

 

[Sun Chariot]

Technically speaking trains do this thousands of times a day at neutral sections (usually denoted by a loud noise near the pantograph and on some units, phone charging stops working).

In the 1980s, one perk of being able to look through the class 310's front saloon for the driver's-eye view, was seeing sign-boards at "upcoming neutral section" and at "start of neutral section".
More recently (2005 to 2007) I still recall the loud "thump" as Pendolinos crossed neutral sections, on my weekly work trips between London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Bald Rick]

In the 1980s, one perk of being able to look through the class 310's front saloon for the driver's-eye view, was seeing sign-boards at "upcoming neutral section" and at "start of neutral section".
More recently (2005 to 2007) I still recall the loud "thump" as Pendolinos crossed neuttal sections, on my weekly work trips between London Euston and Manchester Piccadilly.

Indeed, but that noise is the circuit breaker opening (and then reclosing), not the pantograph dropping.

As others have said, coasting under OLE either for defects or for planned engineering works is routine and happens somewhere on the network most weeks.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Indeed, but that noise is the circuit breaker opening (and then reclosing), not the pantograph dropping.

Yes, I agree and fully aware. My post was solely in reply to @pokemonsuper9 "neutral section" comment.

 

[Magdalia]

IIRC when the Cambridge line flyover was being constructed at Hitchin electric trains on the East Coast Main Line coasted through a dead section; On a planned and authorised basis, of course!

Here is a picture:

365531 HIT 0930 PBO-KGX 7-4-12

7 and 8 April 2012 saw some interesting goings-on at Hitchin in connection with replacement of the points at Cambridge Junction. All trains used the down lines and up trains coasted through the station (as the OLE on the Down Fast had been isolated). Here we see 365531 passing Hitchin on the...

www.flickr.com

 

[Phil R]

Technically speaking trains do this thousands of times a day at neutral sections (usually denoted by a loud noise near the pantograph and on some units, phone charging stops working).

I do recall seeing a video of 91s coasting pantograph down at speed.

The loud noise will be your VCB - vacuum circuit breaker.

 

[martin2345uk]

The internet is your friend - below info is Google Gemini's collation of all publically-available internet sources.
It concurs with my early 1990s VHS video (Video 125 iirc) of the Ligne a Grande Vitesse network. Footage taken by Paris (Combs-la-Ville) showed a TGV set doing exactly that.

SNCF:
The most famous and specific location where this occurs at high speed is the transition between the LGV Sud-Est and the classic network near Paris (Combs-la-Ville) and at various junctions where the high-speed tracks merge into the legacy regional lines.
When a TGV moves between these differing electrical systems, it cannot simply "switch" while drawing power, as this would cause a massive electrical arc or damage the train's sensitive power electronics.

• Combs-la-Ville / Lieusaint: This is the primary transition for trains leaving Paris Gare de Lyon heading toward Lyon on the LGV Sud-Est.
• Courtalain: The junction where the LGV Atlantique splits toward Le Mans and Tours.
• Border Crossings: This also happens at international borders, such as the transition to the 3000\text{ V} DC system in Belgium or the 15\text{ kV} AC system in Germany and Switzerland

Is this different to what the Eurostars do when they pass through similar sections on HS1, and in Calais/Lille/entering the classic lines towards Paris?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is this different to what the Eurostars do when they pass through similar sections on HS1, and in Calais/Lille/entering the classic lines towards Paris?

Eurostars don’t pass through similar sections on HS1.

 

[martin2345uk]

Eurostars don’t pass through similar sections on HS1.

I thought he was talking about sections where the driver has to lower the pantographs, coast through while reconfiguring the train and then raise the pantographs again..? Apologies if I misunderstood

 

[iamraymond]

The loud noise will be your VCB - vacuum circuit breaker.

So does this explain the bang I would hear under wires from time to time? (Often followed by a noticeable change in climate control)