Electric heritage railways

[frankmoh]

I was just thinking today about all of the Metro Cammell Networkers being stored or scrapped and I was wondering if I would see any on a heritage railway in the future.

The problem is that I don't think there are any heritage electric railways in the UK, let alone third rail ones. The EOR was obviously a third rail route in its Underground days but all of the electrical stuff has been stripped out over the years.

How feasible would it be to make a heritage railway for EMUs from a pre-existing electrified route?

 

[steamybrian]

Volks Electric Railway
Seaton Tramway
Crich Tramway Museum
Beamish (Tramway)

 

[frankmoh]

Volks Electric Railway
Seaton Tramway
Crich Tramway Museum

I really mean heavy rail.

There is also the Manx Electric Railway, which, despite its rolling stock, is not heritage because it has kept on running for all this time.

 

[45669]

Aren't some EMU preservation groups looking at the possibility of using batteries?

 

[frankmoh]

I have found out that the East Kent Railway operates EMUs because of how the line was only closed in the 80s. Currently a Class 489/488, 423 and 4-COR are in working order, but from their own website it seems like only the 489 is running a standard service.

 

[341o2]

The easy way has already been done, as with 1198 Linda (Chinnor & PR) and 1497 Freshwater (Spa Valley), to use a diesel loc equipped for push-pull, such as the cl 33 Crompton. This has a precedent with the 4TC units between Bournemouth and Weymouth. Cost and safety wise, I can't see a live 3rd rail on a heritage line.

 

[renegademaster]

4EBP is a good example of how EMU preservation can be done, it being set up as a trailer control for a diesel loco essentially

 

[158760]

I was just thinking today about all of the Metro Cammell Networkers being stored or scrapped and I was wondering if I would see any on a heritage railway in the future.

The problem is that I don't think there are any heritage electric railways in the UK, let alone third rail ones. The EOR was obviously a third rail route in its Underground days but all of the electrical stuff has been stripped out over the years.

How feasible would it be to make a heritage railway for EMUs from a pre-existing electrified route?

The Ongar line was fourth rail, in line with the rest of the underground system.

It would not be feasible at all to have an heritage railway - partly because of the far greater level of risk but also the cost is immense. Heritage railways did not cope well with COVID, many still feeling the effects now and struggling to adapt to the new customer market.

To have an electric train running self powered on a heritage railway the best option is battery power. Third rail is near impossible and I’m not so familiar with rules around knitting but I presume it would be difficult and extremely costly to install.

The best option overall is to either have it running with a diesel on a heritage railway or mainline on railtours, like the VEP, Brighton Belle etc are being modified to do.

I have found out that the East Kent Railway operates EMUs because of how the line was only closed in the 80s. Currently a Class 489/488, 423 and 4-COR are in working order, but from their own website it seems like only the 489 is running a standard service.

They have a 73 running with the Gatwick Stock - it’s not self powered. That is currently the only way to have electric stock on heritage railways - especially for southern stock which is all fitted with the 27 way system to allow push pull working.

 

[Falcon1200]

I have found out that the East Kent Railway operates EMUs

Hauled, as per @158760's post, not least because the East Kent Railway is not, and never was, electrified!

 

[DelW]

I have found out that the East Kent Railway operates EMUs because of how the line was only closed in the 80s. Currently a Class 489/488, 423 and 4-COR are in working order, but from their own website it seems like only the 489 is running a standard service.

Hauled, as per @158760's post, not least because the East Kent Railway is not, and never was, electrified!

The parts of the line that survived were only used by coal traffic from the East Kent coalfield collieries. The passenger stations were closed in 1948, so there had never been any likelihood of electrification.

I explored the line in around 1980, by which time most of it was apparently disused.

 

[bluegoblin7]

The EOR was obviously a third rail route in its Underground days but all of the electrical stuff has been stripped out over the years.

Fourth rail.

There is also the Manx Electric Railway, which, despite its rolling stock, is not heritage because it has kept on running for all this time.

The MER is absolutely heritage, but it is not preserved. There is a difference!

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

We can't even get new third-rail electrification on the main line, yet alone a heritage railway! I recall the Bluebell Rly briefly considering reinstating Horstead Keynes - Ardingly - (Copyhold Jcn.) which would have historical precedent for electrification!

 

[45669]

We can't even get new third-rail electrification on the main line, yet alone a heritage railway! I recall the Bluebell Rly briefly considering reinstating Horstead Keynes - Ardingly - (Copyhold Jcn.) which would have historical precedent for electrification!

The first time I visited the Bluebell I went from Haywards Heath to Horsted Keynes via that line in an electric train. That was in July, 1960 before it opened a month later.

 

[158760]

We can't even get new third-rail electrification on the main line, yet alone a heritage railway! I recall the Bluebell Rly briefly considering reinstating Horstead Keynes - Ardingly - (Copyhold Jcn.) which would have historical precedent for electrification!

Knew somebody would mention that

It was initially floated by the Society some time in the 90s/00s, I can’t remember exactly when. They have it listed as a long term explorable objective, but that objective list also has (among other things) southwards extension to Lewes and a new build Craven engine. So take it with a pinch of salt.

It’s not really discussed now. Someone brings it up every now and again, but it’s not regarded seriously. You can take a look at the finances of the Company last year to get an idea of the likelihood of any work on the Ardingly line taking place other than necessary conversation work.

 

[Jan Mayen]

As I understand it, Horsted Keynes to Ardingly is a long term project (think decades, not years). It was discussed at the AGM last month.
Presumably, when it gets to the point of getting whatever light railway order or TPW or whatever, which authorises construction, that's the point to decide if they should try for electrification.

 

[158760]

As I understand it, Horsted Keynes to Ardingly is a long term project (think decades, not years). It was discussed at the AGM last month.
Presumably, when it gets to the point of getting whatever light railway order or TPW or whatever, which authorises construction, that's the point to decide if they should try for electrification.

It was indeed discussed at the AGM last month. The proposal put forward was overwhelmingly rejected.

Ardingly is a very long term project. With the missing infrastructure I would argue you are building a railway from near scratch. Some work has been done to try and reduce the cost of the project, such as when Palmers Bridge (CC) was replaced in the last few years the template has been retained to easily construct a similar bridge for a Cattle Creep that needs replacing on the Ardingly line - the name escapes me. Could be Sheriff CC? The embankment on the east side of ‘the gap’ at Horsted Keynes has also been extended as far as possible with spoil extracted from Imberhorne Tip, although some track at the Ardingly end has been lifted to try and limit the subsidence. This should then allow for the two bridge spans unused in the Northern Extension Project to span Station Approach after strengthening work has taken place.

But as you say, it is quite a number of years away! Extending two miles from the middle of nowhere to the only slightly less middle of nowhere is not how to recuperate a large loss. Especially with the infrastructural challenges.

 

[D365]

Aren't some EMU preservation groups looking at the possibility of using batteries?

They can do all the feasibility they want, but the reality is that - even if the batteries themselves are donated - all of the required engineering and certification will cost in the hundreds of thousands of pounds.

 

[frankmoh]

They can do all the feasibility they want, but the reality is that - even if the batteries themselves are donated - all of the required engineering and certification will cost in the hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Considering that the only BEMU in service across the UK right now is the Class 777/1, it will a very long time until heritage BEMUs will exist.

 

[Zomboid]

Considering that the only BEMU in service across the UK right now is the Class 777/1, it will a very long time until heritage BEMUs will exist.

The MLV was a thing, and the are still some in preservation.

 

[frankmoh]

The MLV was a thing, and the are still some in preservation.

Oh yeah. I wonder why BR didn't go further with that idea. Aside from how bad 1950s batteries were.

 

[eldomtom2]

I really mean heavy rail.

Well I presume the safety concerns between overhead DC on tramways and overhead DC on heavy rail are pretty similar. There are overhead DC heritage railways in other countries, sometimes operating third-rail stock equipped with trolley poles. I don't think there are insurmountable barriers to an electrified heritage railway, probably using overhead DC electrification in the 500-750 volts range, it's just a matter of support and willpower. It's a great tragedy that the type of train that carries the most people in the UK both now and for many decades in the past - the electric multiple unit - is barely representated in preservation, with even those in preservation not necessarily safe as shown by the recent scrapping of two of the three surviving 503 carriages.

 

[JohnElliott]

They can do all the feasibility they want, but the reality is that - even if the batteries themselves are donated - all of the required engineering and certification will cost in the hundreds of thousands of pounds.

I think that would still compare favourably to the cost of installing catenary or third rail (which would probably have to be DLR-style bottom contact type for safety's sake) on a heritage railway. Fitting a class 230-style fast charge battery pack to (say) the 2Bil sounds much more achievable by comparison.

(Given what's been said numerous times about the likelihood of approval for new third rail, I think that the most historically fitting electrification system for the Bluebell would be LBSCR-style 6600v overhead. Of course a new-build fleet of CW-class MLVs would be required to haul the trains...)

 

[frankmoh]

I think that would still compare favourably to the cost of installing catenary or third rail (which would probably have to be DLR-style bottom contact type for safety's sake) on a heritage railway. Fitting a class 230-style fast charge battery pack to (say) the 2Bil sounds much more achievable by comparison.

(Given what's been said numerous times about the likelihood of approval for new third rail, I think that the most historically fitting electrification system for the Bluebell would be LBSCR-style 6600v overhead. Of course a new-build fleet of CW-class MLVs would be required to haul the trains...)

We are yet to see a SEMU (steam electric multiple unit). Actually, would being behind a steam train even be good for an EMU? Heat and electricity rarely mix outside of kitchens and radiators.

 

[Zomboid]

It'd be fine, steam and electric mixed on the Southern for decades. At least some of the 71s were delivered to the Southern by steam locos.

 

[TrainViation]

Any ideas or plans for Bo'ness Heritage Railway to get overhead lines? After all, they have a class 91, and the railway is connected to the already electrified Edinburgh - Glasgow via Falkirk lines.

 

[martin butler]

I would imagine the safety regulations required, and insurance needed would render any preserved railway electrification unviable,
The best option will have to be battery power, or as loco hauled stock, the Mid hants did operate an EMU special weekend using the vep and 33/1, and two haps, with MLV's, operating on battery power,

 

[A S Leib]

It would only work for deep-level tube stock, if at all, and would still be extortionately expensive, but would one between Holborn and Aldwych (or Green Park and Charing Cross) be possible? At the very least, I'd expect fewer safety concerns than an overground one.

 

[etr221]

There is a preserved line with a bit of third rail - the Dean Forest - only two or three metres. It's there for when they have trainee trackworkers on site, to get them used to such. Whether it can be attached to any sort of electric supply I don't know - perhaps just enough to give a shock and teach them that touching it isn't a good idea!

 

[Mikey C]

The Bakerloo Line performs the function of an electric heritage line at the moment...

 

[generalnerd]

It would only work for deep-level tube stock, if at all, and would still be extortionately expensive, but would one between Holborn and Aldwych (or Green Park and Charing Cross) be possible? At the very least, I'd expect fewer safety concerns than an overground one.

It would be Aldwych and Holborn, considering the whole shuttle route could be operated as a separate line from the main route and it has its own platforms etc plus has occasionally had trains running in and out (I don’t think they do that anymore)

green park still sees regular usage however (every few minutes in fact) unless I am massively mistaken, so if you were to use Charing Cross you would have to just run it backward and forwards.

It would be cool but will probably never happen, but we can daydream.