Electric cars

[furnessvale]

I think that it's quite possible that the EU will mandate one or two charging standards as soon as the take-up reaches a certain point. The mechanical as well as electrical interface should provide for universal accessibility. The current situation is really a consequence of marketing strategies. Of course the UK will have to comply with any genuine standards however our leaving the EU ends up.

Never miss an opportunity to introduce Brexit into any thread!

By comply do you mean like we use EU standard plugs and sockets in our houses?

If the EU manages to formulate a good quality standard that does the job, as opposed to a cobbled up compromise to satisfy 27 disparate political entities, I'm sure the UK would consider using it, having no childish axes to grind in such matters.

Now, can we leave Brexit out and return to electric cars.

 

[AM9]

... By comply do you mean like we use EU standard plugs and sockets in our houses?

What have domestic power outlets got to do with a standard type used on cars. There is no common standard for them across the EU, and all types are made across the world. but it won't be welcomed if technical barriers introduced by some petty anti-EU attitudes in a UK administration create even more problems.

If the EU manages to formulate a good quality standard that does the job, as opposed to a cobbled up compromise to satisfy 27 disparate political entities, I'm sure the UK would consider using it, having no childish axes to grind in such matters. ...

Unless we wish to pay extra for electric cars to be imported with whatever 'different' charging standard we insist on, (or of course manage to supply the UK market with home built vehicles, - mmmm not much chance there), we will be forced to adopt whatever EU standard is introduced. If they do create one, it is also likely that the far-east manufacturers will just see it as part of a world market standard.
It doesn't end there though, many cars (and vans, trucks etc.), not only cross borders when delivered but also throughout their working lives. Although driving between the UK and other countries may become a lot more difficult from 2022 onwards for other reasons, it won't be accepted if unnecessary technical barriers were introduced on some premise that a 'British' design was better.

 

[Domh245]

Unless we wish to pay extra for electric cars to be imported with whatever 'different' charging standard we insist on, (or of course manage to supply the UK market with home built vehicles, - mmmm not much chance there), we will be forced to adopt whatever EU standard is introduced. If they do create one, it is also likely that the far-east manufacturers will just see it as part of a world market standard.

Doesn't have to be a euronorm though, it could well be an ISO (or maybe even IEC) standard that sets it. It is a shame that we've missed the boat on that front, it'd have been nice if someone had the foresight to put a standard into place a few years ago, although then there is the danger of the standard becoming too restrictive as time moves on!

 

[AM9]

Doesn't have to be a euronorm though, it could well be an ISO (or maybe even IEC) standard that sets it. It is a shame that we've missed the boat on that front, it'd have been nice if someone had the foresight to put a standard into place a few years ago, although then there is the danger of the standard becoming too restrictive as time moves on!

I agree that it would have been better but the problem is that a few worldwide manufacturers have led the development in electric cars and seen short-term commercial gain as a driver for the charging interface design (especially Tesla which has grand plans - that have recently had the brakes put on them). I suspect that the next batch of full-scale product launches will need to address the issue of charging stations and providing enough points even for a few national launches will burden their programme costs way beyon what even these large international groups can sustain. To me it would seem a bit like when mobile phones were first launched. If every manufacturer chose a different system (say all were 'GSM-like' but not campatible with each other), they would have been burdened with the base station investment in each country. The arrival of GSM which was developed in France and mandated by the EU prevented the jumble of differing systems in the EU that happened in the US and some other countries. Since then the US carriers has gradually moved either to GSM or at least systems that GSM designs can work with.
Maybe something like USB interfaces (on a much bigger scale) might evolve where the original base level (1.1) is always an option for communication (albeit slow by modern standards) and power. This could mean that an early electric car could charge on the latest high-power public charger at a lower rate as could the latest car on a domestic or basic early public charge point. As 2 physical connectors seems to be a norm for new cars, one being suitable for home or maybe overnight hotel charging, with the larger one being there for fast chargers.
Batteries on all electric cars seem to be about 30-50KWH and maybe could rise to 100KWH in the next 10 years, so looking ahead, over 50-100KW fast charging rates would probably be sufficient for quite some time. As for whether new standards are ISO, IEC or CENELEC take the lead, technical standardisation tends to be European based (not necessarily EU) and generally harmonised fairly quickly to avoid expensive issues of poor interoperability. However much as individuals may dislike the concept of international standards that weren't invented in their own country, it a fact that the most compelling argument for us becoming more involved with the developing EEC/EU was the harmonisation of technical standards, particularly as it was an area where the UK was well established.

 

[Lucan]

Considering that the UK hardly has a home-grown car-making industry any more (I discount flat-pack assembly plants), and certainly not a decision-making one, Britain's views (if if has any) on charging standards are not going to cut much ice, whether in the EU or not. Don't put too much hope in Oriental car companies voluntarily reaching standards of their own accord either - it is not in their culture, Japan cannot even settle on a single domestic mains supply voltage for example. Any direction on standards should come from the ISO, not from political entities such as the EU, UK Government, US Government etc. The latter should only mandate such standards (if they do anything), not define them. As I said, with Britain out of the car-designing loop, we can only go with the flow.

 

[AM9]

Considering that the UK hardly has a home-grown car-making industry any more (I discount flat-pack assembly plants), and certainly not a decision-making one, Britain's views (if if has any) on charging standards are not going to cut much ice, whether in the EU or not. Don't put too much hope in Oriental car companies voluntarily reaching standards of their own accord either - it is not in their culture, Japan cannot even settle on a single domestic mains supply voltage for example. Any direction on standards should come from the ISO, not from political entities such as the EU, UK Government, US Government etc. The latter should only mandate such standards (if they do anything), not define them. As I said, with Britain out of the car-designing loop, we can only go with the flow.

CENELEC (along with others such as ETSI) is a major definer of standards to which most European countries are members. As it happens they effectively initiate most of the standards which the EU subsequently mandates via directives. Such is the weight of co-ordinated technical influence of the European nations that so many of these standards become the basis of global standards (although certain countries outside Europe create their own versions that are in essence compliant with the originals). In order to sell products in Europe, these are generally just written into the specifications of global products. It would take a certain sort of self-defeating pride for any smaller trading nation to a) make/demand products to some obscure home-brew standards given the cost of maintaining a compliance to these standards or b) latch onto standards developed for an entirely different market in the far-east or the US. If we do actually separate from mainstream trade, it would still be nonsensical to abandon common standards, particularly with road vehicles to preven restrictions being imposed on UK registered vehicles being driven on EEA roads.

 

[Jonny]

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...or-hydrogen-trains.161526/page-2#post-3435269
In a hybrid the wheels are driven by electric motors so there's no need for a changeable gearbox. If someone produced one with a gear lever then it would be no more than a software simulation of the effect of a manual gearbox.

Actually, it depends; the need for variable power transference through the motor means that it may be necessary to reduce back EMF, which is a reaction to the electromagnetic field in the motor; it is effectively a generator opposing a motor (which is also the basis of rheostatic/regenerative braking). It increases as more electricity is passed through the motor and causes increased resistance until it will not spin faster. A variable ratio on the output shaft may be needed to solve that problem if the back EMF cannot be reduced by other means for a given speed, especially since the usual other method (weakened field) is not an option on permanent magnet motors (which are an increasing trend).

 

[edwin_m]

Actually, it depends; the need for variable power transference through the motor means that it may be necessary to reduce back EMF, which is a reaction to the electromagnetic field in the motor; it is effectively a generator opposing a motor (which is also the basis of rheostatic/regenerative braking). It increases as more electricity is passed through the motor and causes increased resistance until it will not spin faster. A variable ratio on the output shaft may be needed to solve that problem if the back EMF cannot be reduced by other means for a given speed, especially since the usual other method (weakened field) is not an option on permanent magnet motors (which are an increasing trend).

True in theory, but the answer would be to source a motor with a more suitable characteristic, which seems to have been achieved in every electric train for example. Adding a variable speed gearbox would cost more and take up more space.

 

[mac]

Up to now I have seen nothing to convince me to swap my Mazda 6 diesel for anything electric and when I change it next year it will be for another diesel, my car is supposed to be polluting the world but 10 years ago the end of my exhaust was black now it's as clean as the day I got it 61000 miles ago.
Could it just be the greens are making out things are worse than they really are and unfortunately we have a government that listen without asking questions.

 

[tony_mac]

Could it just be the greens are making out things are worse than they really are and unfortunately we have a government that listen without asking questions.

Why do you think they would do that? There would be a lot of scientists, from many countries, colluding for no obvious benefit to themselves.
Just because emissions are not visible doesn't mean that they aren't dangerous.

 

[mac]

Because they don't have any other plan, they seem to like wind power but never give an answer about all the concrete used to build them or what happens theres no wind. Scientists I a one of them people who think if someone can make money out of something they will say the moons made of cheese, we all pay tax because of emissions would any government want to stop that?

 

[tony_mac]

Scientists don't make money for saying that emissions cause diseases.
If anything, they would make far more money working for oil companies and saying the opposite.

A more likely explanation seems to be that most scientists are reporting the truth, as they find it, and that governments are trying to prevent millions of deaths. If they are really so desperate to increase taxes then they could just increase taxes, without resorting to bribing all of these scientists (and not even telling them that they are being bribed!).

 

[mac]

But someone pays them, just like we all pay tax on our fuel bill to fight emissions.
I live in the countryside in Lincolnshire and to produce clean electric the farmers grow crops on land they receive a subsidy on contractor's do all the work from planting to harvest with big tractors with big diesel engines, they haul it to a bio digester and then take everything back again, the digester company also get a subsidy. It's all done for money not because its clean.
It's the same with power stations trees are cut down in America chipped transported thousands of miles to a port shipped across to us loaded on to a train and taken to a power station to make clean power HOW is that clean to anyone but the greens

 

[AM9]

Up to now I have seen nothing to convince me to swap my Mazda 6 diesel for anything electric and when I change it next year it will be for another diesel, ...

It depends on what would convince you, but you can't expect the status quo to remain until the 31st December 2039 (when sales of new ICE vehicles are planned to stop), before many measures to force users away from polluting internal combustion engines to more acceptable alternatives are introduced. By that I don't mean that it will be handouts as inducements. You can expect an increasing range of restrictions to be rolled-out intending to drive (no pun intended) users of polluting vehicles to change their ways. The first restrictions that are already being talked about are likely to be limitations on where and when diesel vehicles can be driven.* They will also be accompanied by escalating charges for such use that is allowed. Petrol engine restrictions will follow soon after that.
Having said that, I don't think that drivers should feel sorry for themselves as the rapid take-up of electric vehicles will accelerate developments in both battery capacity and charging facility availability so although electric cars will require a different drivers' mindset, particularly as regards to vehicle range between 'refuelling', life will still go on - albeit in a much cleaner healthier environment. The idea is that those who persist in creating vehicular pollution, will pay a progressively greater price for their actions until total prohibition is introduced.

The London Ultra Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ) comes into force in just over 11 months time. You can expect similar measures in other large UK cities soon after. The restrictions on all ICE vehicles are likely to increase progressively supported with increased differentiation in VED (or whatever road charging is introduced) between polluter and clean road users.

 

[mac]

But as i put earlier if all its doing is moving emissions from the vehicle to somewhere else why bother even the clean government has yards with diesel generators to make electric, is that clean because its not in a town?

 

[tony_mac]

But as i put earlier if all its doing is moving emissions from the vehicle to somewhere else why bother

because fewer people breathe the emissions and hence fewer people die as a result.

 

[mac]

so people in the country have less right to a long life than city people.

What about ships I'm sure I read somewhere that 50 of the worlds biggest ships cause more pollution than all the worlds cars but yet nobody is stopping them.

 

[Domh245]

Also, it's far easy to manage the emissions if you are doing it across fewer sites. It is far easier to have one big exhaust scrubber than thousands of smaller ones attached to cars.

 

[tony_mac]

so people in the country have less right to a long life than city people.

Does that actually make any sense to you?

 

[AM9]

so people in the country have less right to a long life than city people.

What about ships I'm sure I read somewhere that 50 of the worlds biggest ships cause more pollution than all the worlds cars but yet nobody is stopping them.

so two wrongs make a right then? Just another straw man argument won't sway those who make these big decisions.

 

[HSTEd]

The EU already tried to mandate a single electric car charging standard.

They had to row back when it turned out the one they picked was being crushed in adoption terms by one they didn't pick. (ChAdeMO basically won the first adopter war).

 

[furnessvale]

Also, it's far easy to manage the emissions if you are doing it across fewer sites. It is far easier to have one big exhaust scrubber than thousands of smaller ones attached to cars.

.............................half of which don't work, have been illegally removed or even bypassed by manufacturers computers!

 

[HSTEd]

Also hard to build a car that generates energy from the fissioning of uranium, or from the orbital motion of the moon.

 

[Harpers Tate]

.....all its doing is moving emissions from the vehicle to somewhere else why bother.....

The important point is - the car itself doesn't care where the electricity it uses comes from. It is (for example) quite feasible to run such a car entirely on solar or wind power (where available) and it doesn't have an effect whatsoever on the vehicle's performance, nor need any modification. My domestic supply is (in as much as this actually means anything) 100% "green". One of the free public chargers nearby is powered by a windmill with a grid backup.

Is that 100%? No. But it's far greater than the 0% any fossil-fuelled vehicle. And every bit helps - no?

And, from a personal POV, did I mention that it can cost as little as £0 per mile to run?

Without trying to be "cheap" - my first 4000+ miles have cost me in domestic and remote fuel (charges) an amount that equates to a petrol vehicle doing 157 mpg.

 

[Groningen]

The range for an electric car is still so small that for a holiday one can better stay in the vicinity of the Netherlands.

 

[Lucan]

Up to now I have seen nothing to convince me to swap my Mazda 6 diesel for anything electric

It depends on what would convince you

What would convince me is more favourable data on battery life and the cost of its replacement

One of the free public chargers nearby is powered by a windmill with a grid backup.

That sort of thing (free electricity) will last only while "green" political posturing is going on. When EVs become more popular and the issue becomes old, forget it.

The restrictions on all ICE vehicles are likely to increase progressively supported with increased differentiation in VED (or whatever road charging is introduced). between polluter and clean road users.

VED and/or road charging will need to add up more-or-less to what it does now, because government cannot afford to lose that income. So in your scenario of increasing differentiation, as the rising VED cost of IC vehicles approaches tipping point (ie when IC is very rapidly abandoned) the EV tax will need to shoot up suddenly to compensate. That would be very politically unpopular, like a stab in the back to the new EV owners. Therefore I think government is likely to start increasing EV taxation gradually from the near future if they have sense. From the PR angle, I think people generally are getting increasingly irritated at seeing for example wealthy Tesla owners getting tax breaks, free electricity, proirity parking for EVs and so on, not to mention the smug attitude of some EV owners. I believe the whole EV thing is being handled badly.

And, from a personal POV, did I mention that it can cost as little as £0 per mile to run?

...... until road charging or a VED kicks in. Seriously, get back to us with some money figures when you need to replace the battery or trade the car in.

 

[whhistle]

Now, can we leave Brexit out and return to electric cars.

Why should anyone do what you say?
It's a valid point.

And this is the reason I wil continue using my diesel and pretol car.
Until there's a reasonable standard, IE, I don't want to have to get some sort of adaptor just to be able to charge, there will always be a struggle for early adpotors.

But then it's the chicken and the egg scenario. Nobody will buy because they don't want to bother wondering where the nearest charge point is. Nobody will build charging points properly because nobody buys the cars.

This could see the return of the motorway service station being a destination rather than a smelly stop off. But would it also see the demise of petrol stations? I guess places like supermarkets would expand their parking to include charging bags, a little like I see more and more self-checkouts these days at my local Asda. Not that I'm bothered as I see sticking my shopping on a belt to be scanned by someone else rather clunky these days. I often how we didn't think of self-check out before! I digress.

I'd love to buy an electric car and could make excellent use of it.
But I don't have £15,000+ to buy one when I have another vehicle that works fine.
If the government gave me £5,000 and a car costs £10,000, yeah, I'd take out a loan for one. BUt it's not that easy.

Soon though, within 10 years, there will be a massive switch to electric I bet.

 

[radamfi]

Are there any countries/regions where electric is making significant inroads into the private car fleet?

 

[Bald Rick]

Are there any countries/regions where electric is making significant inroads into the private car fleet?

Depends on what you mean by significant. But London is certainly seeing a sea change. Every road I seem to walk down has a Tesla, i3, or Mitsubishi PHEV. I even see an occasional Golf GTEs or A3 E-tron.

Whilst not private cars as such, I saw 4 of the new electric / hybrid taxis today, and I gather they are very popular with drivers / passengers alike. My guess is that by the end of the decade, 20% of the London car fleet will be electric, or hybrid but working as electric in London.

 

[furnessvale]

Why should anyone do what you say?
It's a valid point.

The advisability of a single standard for a charging plug is indeed a valid point.

The silly "UK will have to do what the EU says" was pure anti Brexit and, according to #51, shown to be irrelevant anyway.