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Election - Something About to Happen ?

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Old Timer

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Maybe not but I certainly wouldn't believe anything Cameron says, remember 1997 and the wave of expectation when Blair came to power?

As far as PFI goes, a real socialist party would never have done it. PFI was introduced by John Major but continued by New Labour.

I certainly don't trust New Labour and won't be voting for them but the last thing we need is a shift further to the right.
PFI is a Labour policy through and through.

So on the basis of a series Labour Governments led by a shyster (and anyone with a brain knew he was a bull****ter - apart from those who voted for him, and have paid with the subsequent penury they are now in) you now profess to say we cannot believe anything DC says ?

Can you not see the absurdity in that statement ?

I at least gave Bliar the opportunity to demonstrate that in power he was all bull****, his Policies were all smoke and mirrors, and he was more corrupt than anyone before.

I am off to get another drink !
 
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What worries me slightly is the reducing lead the Tories have over Labour, I just hope and pray that Brown doesn't return to Number 10 after the election.

The one thing that really hacks me off with voters, and it's probably more prevalent amongst Labout voters here in the North, is that most of them vote the same way they (or their parents) have always done, why do these people not assess the policy options first? :roll: Why do we have to have 'Labour heartlands' or 'Tory strongholds'? Why do former mining communities always vote Labour because of what Maggie did to their Industry? as Old Timer rightly said :

I find it amazing though that people still feel the need to refer back to a woman who has been out of power for 21 years.

I was a BIG admirer of Maggie, mainly because she looked after the Armed Services which I was part of during her reign, but that doesn't mean I'll always vote Tory. In fact I think that Vince Cable is more switched on than the lot of them and would do very well in Number 11.
 

Trog

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I assume you mean "oaf".

An "oath" is like a pledge you make to tell the truth before speaking as a witness in court. Or before you take office as an MP...
In other words, and "oath" is usually something pretty meaningless that everyone ignores.

Wait, maybe Brown IS an oath!


An oath is also an old term for a swear word.
 

Old Timer

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PFI was introduced by the Tories, yes the policy was continued by New Labour but it's certainly not a socialist policy.
Sorry but it IS a socialist policy, adopted by and implemented by a variety of former Communists, Marxists and Leninists who have held and continue to hold senior positions in THIS Government. I cannot envisage anything more "Socialist" than that.


In July 1997 after Labour were in power a PFI taskforce was established within the Treasury to provide central co-ordination for the roll-out of PFI. Known as the Treasury Taskforce (TTF), its main responsibilities are to standardise the procurement process and train staff throughout government in the ways of PFI, especially in the private finance units of other government departments. The TTF initially consisted of a policy arm staffed by five civil servants, and a projects section employing eight private sector executives led by Adrian Montague, formally co-head of Global Project Finance at the investment bank Dresdner Kleinwort Benson.

In 1999 the policy arm was moved to the Office of Government Commerce(OGC), but it was subsequently moved back to the Treasury.

The projects section was part-privatised and became Partnerships UK (PUK). The Treasury retains a 49% 'golden share', while the majority stake in PUK is owned by private sector investors. PUK is now staffed almost entirely by private sector procurement specialists such as corporate lawyers, investment bankers, consultants and so forth. It takes the lead role in evangelising PFI and its variants within government, and is in control of the policy's day-to-day implementation.

In March 2009, in the face of funding difficulties caused by the global financial crisis, the Treasury established an Infrastructure Finance Unit with a mandate to ensure the continuation of PFI projects. In April 2009, the unit stumped up £120m of public money to ensure that a new waste disposal project in Manchester would go ahead. Andy Rose, the unit head, said: "This is what we were set up to do, to get involved where private sector capital is not available.”

In May 2009 the unit proposed to provide £30m to bail out a second PFI project, a £700m waste treatment plant in Wakefield. In response, Tony Travers, Director of the Greater London group at the London School of Economics described the use of public money to finance PFI as "Alice in Wonderland economics".
 

Trog

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I find it amazing though that people still feel the need to refer back to a woman who has been out of power for 21 years.


Who have we had since with the same presence?


Love her or loath her, she did at least seem to believe in what she did, and seemed to try to impliment the policies she was elected on. Since then we have just had deepening spin and sleeze. To the extent that most people when asked if a hung parliment would be a good thing, say the higher the better.
 

Old Timer

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Who have we had since with the same presence?


Love her or loath her, she did at least seem to believe in what she did, and seemed to try to impliment the policies she was elected on. Since then we have just had deepening spin and sleeze. To the extent that most people when asked if a hung parliment would be a good thing, say the higher the better.
Hello Chap.

Yes to her credit she never claimed expenses or housing allowances which was why she became homeless after she left Office.

Of course no-one of the Lefties on here would ever give her credit for that.

Compare that to the £12k that Brown had to pay back, and God only knows what Bliar took, because he had all his expenses shredded !
 

CarterUSM

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This is a topic where no-one will agree, I have voted for both these parties in various elections and I honestly cannot see the difference anyway. No-one will ever always be happy with the government, whomever they may be. It's a thankless task. I don't blame anybody in particular for the current economic downturn either, i'm of the opinion it would have happened anyway, boom and bust, boom and bust. In perpetuity.......
 

Zoe

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Sorry but it IS a socialist policy, adopted by and implemented by a variety of former Communists, Marxists and Leninists who have held and continue to hold senior positions in THIS Government. I cannot envisage anything more "Socialist" than that.
Just as some of the people that are in New Labour now may have formerly been communists/socialists and that they decided to continue the PFI policy doesn't make them socialists now. Since when has privatization been a socialist policy? New Labour have effectively abandoned socialism now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7891475.stm

"PFI was created during John Major's Conservative rule"
 
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Old Timer

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Just as some of the people that are in New Labour now may have formerly been communists/socialists and that they decided to continue the PFI policy doesn't make them socialists. Since when has privatization been a socialist policy?
Have you not understood what I wrote ?

Labour is NOT and never can be a Right wing Party. Its beliefs are the polar to that of the Conservatives.

THey describe themselves as Soiciualist and lets face it what difference ultimately is there between Communism, Marxism, Leninism and Stalinism. The last of course is much practiced by Brown.

It is simply asking too much to expect us to believe that Labour is anywhere near the Right. A Leopard can never change its spots and Labour has long been the home to a variety of individuals whose beliefs and long term ambitions leave a particularly nasty tatse in the mouth.

If these people were not welcome within Labour then why has the PLP not expelled them ?

PS Major introduced the PPP - Public Private Partneship
 

thefab444

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Of course I forgot, Thatcherism gives it's supporters the right to sneer at anything which opposes it, and the right to deem anything else as "irrelevant"; be it media, political figures or people on a railway forum.

You seem to see things as Black and White, there's Labour, all the baddies and the left wingers, supported by The Guardian and The Independent, and then there's the Tories, whiter than white, supported by that bastion of reliability, objectivity and sound journalism that is The Daily Mail.

I love the way you don't even make a single reference to the Liberal Democrats in any of your posts, taking the traditional Tory line that they don't even exist and are to be laughed at along with anyone else who disagrees with Thatcherite ideals? Well, hopefully you'll find out the hard way when Cameron comes crying to Liberals to form a coalition government. That said, given Gordon Brown's lambasting of the Liberals in the Commons I shouldn't think they'd be too keen to coalitise with Labour either.

Judging by the timing, and quality of grammar in your last post, you've been down at the local Tory club drinking whisky and soda, so I won't bother to reply to some of the frankly stupid assertions you've made.

The only area where I agree with you is that in recent polling it's rather amazing that 33% (or whatever the figure is) of the population are still going to vote for Gordon Brown!
 
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Drsatan

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The only area where I agree with you is that in recent polling it's rather amazing that 33% (or whatever the figure is) of the population are still going to vote for Gordon Brown!

It's amazing how stupid people are to still vote Labour even though we've endured 13 years of their incompetence. I suppose across London, Birmingham and much of the North Labour will be relying on the Asian vote to win the general election and immigrants who've attained citizenship (and thus the right to vote) as opposed to traditional Labour voters (i.e. white working class) who will either vote BNP or stay at home on election day.
 

Nick W

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Order order!

If Old Timer wants to make a complete fool of himself with his ludicrous claims that there's no difference between Gordon Brown's policies and those of Stalin than leave him be.

The fact is that both the Tory party and Labour aim to appeal to the middle class, because that is where the most votes are to be found, and therefore the parties' policies become closer day by day. Labour is no longer at the mercy of the trade unions and so have dropped most of their socialist policies. The Conservatives, lead by David Cameron, are no longer presented as the party of small government (though it must be sad that vast numbers of back-benchers are still highly pro-Thatcherism). The real differences in policy are between centralisation and devolution of governance, and the role of the EU. The other key difference is that, while Labour will simply keep tax as it is, the Conservative party will raise the inheritance tax threshold, and therefore cut the tax of the richer members of society, and have talked about freezing tax. Only the Liberal Democrats will reform the tax policy, raising the threshold at which people start paying income tax.

As for the differences in economic policy, the Conservative party, who originally championed the need for massive spending cuts, itself realised what a disaster any cuts to essential services will be, and swept them under the carpet. Labour policy seems to be one of "maintain spending levels" without any bold action, which seems to be producing results, though slower than in countries were they had more of an economic stimulus. The two facts are, whichever party gets in there will be spending cuts, cuts which should have been made long ago, and that any party which chooses cuts to essential services without reformation is invoking a disaster on Britain.

At the end of the day, the question is, who is best prepared to deliver the changes? I present to you, Alistair Darling, of Labour, who's simply not done enough so far; George Osborne with a degree in history, who can't be straight with us as to what on the agenda in terms of cuts; or Vince Cable, with a PHD in economics, who has detailed where he thinks cuts can be made without too adverse an effect on the economy, and would call for democratic debate on where cuts are best made.
 

TrainBrain185

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Quite frankly, there is nobody worth voting for. I find MP's are a crooked bunch and I have still not come down to earth after the expenses fiasco, which in my opinion every MP manipulating the expenses without a valid reason should have been charged for fraud. Has that happened? No! My second gripe regards immigration, well, blame Labour and their PC, do-gooder supporters have done that. Iraq? Afghanistan? Thats just something else! Its quite sickening when I have a vote but no one to vote for. What do you do?
 

142094

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Latest YouGov poll has a Tory 2% lead over Labour, compared to a 20% lead at one time. I can see this going one of two ways - either a hung parliament, or Gordon gets in by the skin of his teeth. No way will the Cons get an overall majority, unless something big happens between now and the summer.
 

313103

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Have you not understood what I wrote ?

Labour is NOT and never can be a Right wing Party. Its beliefs are the polar to that of the Conservatives.

I find this statement absolutely incredulous even from you Old Timer, i know we dont see eye to eye, but even a man of your knowledge and experience surely can tell that the current Government is not a left wing organistaion and they got rid of all socialistic quoting from their own rule book including the rule that made me leave the then LEFT leaning Labour Party 'Clause 4'. Again a man of your standing surely knows that Labour would never have got in on a Socialist ticket even in 1997. Even a Kinnock led Labour party who got rid of real socialists in the 1980s never got to power.

Me as socialist feels insulted that you tar the NOUVEAU LABOUR lot as one of us, please do not insult my intelligence by saying that the current Government are socialists. This current lot wouldn't know what socialism was if it hit them in the face.

THey describe themselves as Soiciualist and lets face it what difference ultimately is there between Communism, Marxism, Leninism and Stalinism. The last of course is much practiced by Brown.
Actually if you read their writings you would see the differences, I for a start wouldn't support a murdering barsteward like Stalin, however i dont quite see how Brown can be accused of following in Stalins path, in my eyes Brown is a pussy, who would run away at the sight of an AK47 let alone arm himself with one.

It is simply asking too much to expect us to believe that Labour is anywhere near the Right. A Leopard can never change its spots and Labour has long been the home to a variety of individuals whose beliefs and long term ambitions leave a particularly nasty taste in the mouth.
One could also argue that MPs and individuals in the Tory party also have dubious links that also leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

If these people were not welcome within Labour then why has the PLP not expelled them ?
Name me a true Socialist that is in the Current Labour Party? All true Socialists left the Labour Party when the Labour party decided to rid itself of Socialistic thinkings.

PS Major introduced the PPP - Public Private Partneship

Look what a mess PPP is: Metronet Gone Bust Taxpayers pick up the Tab, Tubelines on the verge of collapse again no doubt the taxpayer will pick up the tab.
 

DaveNewcastle

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A late friend of mine used to have an answer to this. His response was that you should vote for the 'least worst' party!
And a friend of mine always insisted:
"Don't vote!
It only encourages them!
"

It does not matter who you vote for the Government always gets in. :(
and the common factor linking the reign of Robert Mugabe and Gordon Brown is . . . .
. . . nobody voted for them.

Depressing, isn't it?
 

Spagnoletti

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Group of overconfident narcissist egomaniacs convince Rupert Murdoch to support them & win General Election.
They then proceed to renege on manifesto promises while making concessions to well-funded lobby groups and the interests of wealthy benefactors.
Surveillance state is increased in order to protect us from terrorists to the point where joined up databases become politically useful.
Young men & women continue to be sent to failed states to get shot at for reasons that remain debatable.
British public remains largely disengaged with politics which more and more becomes the preserve of individuals who have chosen a political career while at University rather than having a real job(*) for a while first.
Country continues to circle plughole.
Random fluctuations in the flows of global capital occasionally bring favourable conditions to the British economy. Current government takes credit for this.
Random fluctuations in the flows of global capital occasionally bring unfavourable conditions to the British economy. Current government blames others for this.
China invited to bail out Government debts in return for firstborn child of all families living north of Watford Services(**)
Rinse, repeat, change colour of logo and ties at 4 yearly intervals, or multiples thereof.



* - to be fair, largely because there aren't that many to go round
** - ok that probably won't happen.
 

Old Timer

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I find this statement absolutely incredulous even from you Old Timer, i know we dont see eye to eye, but even a man of your knowledge and experience surely can tell that the current Government is not a left wing organistaion and they got rid of all socialistic quoting from their own rule book including the rule that made me leave the then LEFT leaning Labour Party 'Clause 4'. Again a man of your standing surely knows that Labour would never have got in on a Socialist ticket even in 1997. Even a Kinnock led Labour party who got rid of real socialists in the 1980s never got to power..

Me as socialist feels insulted that you tar the NOUVEAU LABOUR lot as one of us, please do not insult my intelligence by saying that the current Government are socialists. This current lot wouldn't know what socialism was if it hit them in the face.
How does that tally with the various hard left credentials of much of this and previous Cabinets then ? There were a fair number of former Marxists, Trotyskyists, Leninists and Communist supporters, in some cases card carrying members of the Communist Party.

Those on the Left believe in State control, centralised planning, high taxation, restrictions on freedom, identity cards, centralised records on the population.......errrr isn't this what has been happening over the past 13 years ??


Actually if you read their writings you would see the differences, I for a start wouldn't support a murdering barsteward like Stalin, however i dont quite see how Brown can be accused of following in Stalins path, in my eyes Brown is a pussy, who would run away at the sight of an AK47 let alone arm himself with one..
I have read their writings and I was intrigued by the parallels between how Stalin gained and retained power in the 20s and 30s and the methods used by Bliar and Brown to consolidate and retain THEIR power.

Stalin for example never did the deed, he used his underdogs, in the same way that Bliar used Campbell and Brown uses his coterie of "Attack Dogs" - (Source - A. Darling).

As for murder, there is a significant group of scientists and doctors who question the circumstances under which Dr Kelly died. The stated facts and causes do not corrrespond, for example why no blood when it is alleged that he cut his wrists ?

One could also argue that MPs and individuals in the Tory party also have dubious links that also leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. .
I am not aware of any leading member of the Shadow Cabinet who has been a card carrying member of a Far Right group, or who have held extreme hard Right views...... unlike members of the present Government.

Name me a true Socialist that is in the Current Labour Party? All true Socialists left the Labour Party when the Labour party decided to rid itself of Socialistic thinkings..
Do you REALLY mean that ? - (See my points above)

Look what a mess PPP is: Metronet Gone Bust Taxpayers pick up the Tab, Tubelines on the verge of collapse again no doubt the taxpayer will pick up the tab.
Errrr both these were forced through by Brown, against objects from the Conservative Opposition. Everybody knew they wouldn't work but Labour being Labour carried on blindly, Brown et al sneering at those who objected
 

thefab444

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Those on the Left believe in State control, centralised planning, high taxation, restrictions on freedom, identity cards, centralised records on the population

Woah, I'm sure the Conservative Party won't be happy with your blatant plaguerism of their next manifesto!

Seriously though, you seem only to operate with two ideas, Hard Left (what you say applies to the Labour party) and Conservative Middle Right.

You don't seem to accept the idea that people can have a mixture of views, for example, I would class myself as a Liberal Socialist; I believe in higher taxation for the rich in order to fund public services, nationalised utilities to avoid private companies having monopolies on every day essentials (I don't extend to nationalised industry though), and alignment of UK foreign policy with the EU rather than the USA. You don't seem to accept that you can have a liberal (freedom, equality etc.) Left in the same way you can have an oppressive Right. Left does not neccessarily equal the things you suggested in that quote.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
and the common factor linking the reign of Robert Mugabe and Gordon Brown is . . . .
. . . nobody voted for them.

The residents of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath have voted for Gordon Brown, as have the residents of Dunfermline East before them.

As usual, Scots get all the power! :roll: ;)
 
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Old Timer

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Seriously though, you seem only to operate with two ideas, Hard Left (what you say applies to the Labour party) and Conservative Middle Right.
That is not an entirely fair suggestion.

You and others of Left Wing persuausion assume that I am a hardened Conservative supporter, when in fact my actual convictions, as I have said many times before, do not align precisely with any specific Party, although having worked in the Former Soviet Union, and seem first hand the results of their form of Socialism, and the UKs form of Socilaism, I am firmly to the Right of Centre.

I do have enormous respect for a small number of Left Wing MPs, such as the late Gwynetth Dunwoody whom I have met, and Frank Field, to give you two examples.

A hard Right agenda is as bad as a hard Left agenda, but as has been demonstrated (as far as I am concerned) over and over, just throwing money into everything does not of itself solve anything.

Higher taxation simply destroys initiative and entrepreneurial endeavour. State spending can never achieve efficient or effective growth, and you just have to look at the Ukrainian Tractor statistics of old to realise that Government control and centralisation of production can never work.

Unfortunately it appears that any objection to Labour marks one as a hard Right winger with some members of the Forum, so fine I shall play the game and have fun !
 

Techniquest

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All this talk of elections (most of the stuff in this thread goes whoosh over my head mind) has reminded me that I'm registered to vote in my old local area of Kington, Herefordshire. Now that I'm not there any more, with considerable distance between Trowbridge and Kington, does anyone know if I can get it changed so I can vote still?

My polling card will probably arrive in Kington at my Mum's house but, due to circumstances I'm not going to go into, it would be very difficult if not impossible for me to utilise my vote as it stands. I'd hate to waste my vote, it's something I feel strongly against. Far too many people I know are happy to waste their vote, but are happy to moan about the state of affairs!

Any ideas on how I might be able to get my polling card changed or whatever would be extremely appreciated. :)
 

Mojo

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Yes, just contact your local authority (district council or unitary authority) and ask to register to vote. If you are resident in more than one area (eg. if you are a student) you can only vote once for each authority (ie. you can only vote for one MP but can vote for a councillor in each different council).
 

Techniquest

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Thanks Mojo, shall make sure I get on with that ASAP. Since it's such a nice day I think I'll get on with it this afternoon, should make for a nice and pleasant walk to the council offices :)
 
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