Eight carriages or two?

[Flamingo]

I had a few evening trains from London last week where as usual, coach E looked like the Black Hole of Calcutta, but there were tumbleweed blowing around in coaches A and B, regardless of how many announcements I made that there was plenty of seats on the train. The resulting arguments of "Where do you expect us to go, the train is full" from the standard class passengers I was kicking out of First Class vestibules (some of them for the second or third evening in a row), made me think there must be a solution.

I've come up with an idea that could have major savings for the HS2 project:

Only have two standard class carriages on HST's.
1. A "normal" sized quiet carriage,
2. One other carriage - 180m long. Call it coach E and practically every commuter will want to sit in it.

The potential for savings are enormous, as
a. there will be no need to engineer multiple couplings and electrical connections into it, inmcreasing reliability and decreasing maintainence costs, along with eliminating all the duplication of AC units etc that comes with multiple carriages
b. It will only need one door, as that's all that get's used anyway - and will make dispatch quicker as that door is the only one that will need checking.
c. Every commuter will be able to sit in the carriage closest to the exit at Reading
d. It'll save all those questions about "What carriage is my seat in?", preventing confusion and increasing passenger satisfaction.
I'm sure that the "bendy bus" technology can be developed enough to make the carriage fit around corners and at curved platforms.

What do you all think? Is it a pragmatic solution to the problem?

 

[asylumxl]

It's a bit expensive. Surely a rifle would be a far more cost effective solution?

 

[Flamingo]

They won't let me do that. The batteries have run out on my cattle-prod as well.

 

[gnolife]

call all Standard Coaches 'E' and have the first class ones labeled different

 

[asylumxl]

They won't let me do that. The batteries have run out on my cattle-prod as well.

Such a shame. That's why I always carry spares. I love the smell of electricuted commuters. Brightens my day no end.

 

[Crossover]

Oh, you don't know how much this made me laugh!

 

[Flying Snail]

Nah, they'd still just cram around the London end of your super-long coach.

The Trainline got it spot on with their advertising, bunch of mindless sheep, still wouldn't buy from them mind that would be another form of sheepery. You should get a recording of the music they use in that advert along with the sheep sounds and play it over the intercom along with your announcements.

That sort of idiocy goes on all over the place, the best example of this I have had was about 20 years ago. I was heading back to Dublin from Cork on a Sunday evening non-stop train with a college friend. We were one of the first to board and had gotten the very first bay in the first carriage, this was only 1 carriage away from the platform subway entrance. By the time the train departed all the seats in the carriage were occupied including us sharing the 4-bay with strangers as well as numerous people standing in the vestibule and inside the coach so no chance of getting to the droplight to listen to the GM which was why we had chosen that coach in the first place.

About 20 minutes into the trip I decided to head to the buffet, more to get away from the person sitting next to me for a while than to get food. The first 3 carriages were all well overloaded, probably 30+ people standing between them, the next one was full with no standing and the one after that had some empty seats dotted around. In the next coach which was the buffet out of the 30 odd seats in it only half were occupied and there was one empty bay. There were a couple of people waiting in the bar area so I went past it and noticed there was another standard coach beyond it, looked in and it was completely empty.

I went straight back to the other end and without saying why got my friend and our belongings together and headed back down the train to the still empty rear coach where we spent the remaining 2 hours in an otherwise deserted carriage without a single interruption. I had considered informing all the people standing but decided why bother, they were seemingly happy to make my journey uncomfortable by crushing into the front carriages, blocking the passageways and toilets why should I do them any favours. If I had invited them into MY carriage I'd only have had to listen to them talking crap for the rest of the journey.

 

[Crossover]

Actually, you raise a fair point there Flying_Snail

I usually find this happens at the likes of Manchester Picc, currently with Voyagers but also, last year when I was using them to travel further south regularly, the Pendolinos too.

Everyone crams on the concourse end of the train, to the point I have seen people standing. Walking down the outside of the train, the carriages get emptier, to the point of the standard class coaches at the front are virtually empty (and on occasion have remained so for the majority of the journey)

So far as I'm concerned, their loss is my gain!

 

[Broken Viking]

Everyone crams on the concourse end of the train, to the point I have seen people standing. Walking down the outside of the train, the carriages get emptier, to the point of the standard class coaches at the front are virtually empty (and on occasion have remained so for the majority of the journey)

The strangest thing - Of course - Is most people seem to ignore the fact that it'll take them no more time to walk from the opposite end of the train to the footbridge/concourse then it'd take them to find their way out of the carriage closest to the latter! hock:

Granted, I'm known to be a fast walker and I can trot along the platform from one end of an HST to the other in about 40-60 seconds...But I don't think my speed really makes that much of a difference versus other people over such a short distance.
What made me realise the above was when I and a friend were on board a packed Pendo in reverse formation a few years ago (SC quiet was literally sardined) and my friend decided to make his way to the SC/FC division to alight at Euston whilst I decided to stay where I was and bail out the QC doors.

Needless to say, he reached the platform barriers from the top end of FC a good two minutes before I'd managed to squeeze my way out of the one door that the whole train seemed to be using, and during the peaks I havn't tried to go for the "Exit" door ever since!

So far as I'm concerned, their loss is my gain!

That's what I learned, that's what I practice, and that's why I havn't missed any tight connections over the last four years at least!

 

[ChrisCooper]

Particularly towards the end of Slam Door stock, I did quite a few rush hour journies off London on them (as those tended to be more likely slammers), always travelling in the front coach and always having room to spread out. I imagine the rear of the train in all cases was packed though. I've had it on the underground too, busy trains with heavy loads crushing on, walked down to the end opposite the enterance and got a nice quiet car. Another one I used to like was when MML ran HSTs in reverse formation at weekends, as few could be bothered to walk down to 1st class at the front so I could often upgrade and get a coach to myself (or on one occasion coming from Sheffield, the guard never came around so I got a free upgrade). Catching the same trains in normal formation though and the first class would be much busier.

 

[43021HST]

I had a few evening trains from London last week where as usual, coach E looked like the Black Hole of Calcutta, but there were tumbleweed blowing around in coaches A and B, regardless of how many announcements I made that there was plenty of seats on the train. The resulting arguments of "Where do you expect us to go, the train is full" from the standard class passengers I was kicking out of First Class vestibules (some of them for the second or third evening in a row), made me think there must be a solution.

I've come up with an idea that could have major savings for the HS2 project:

Only have two standard class carriages on HST's.
1. A "normal" sized quiet carriage,
2. One other carriage - 180m long. Call it coach E and practically every commuter will want to sit in it.
The potential for savings are enormous, as
a. there will be no need to engineer multiple couplings and electrical connections into it, inmcreasing reliability and decreasing maintainence costs, along with eliminating all the duplication of AC units etc that comes with multiple carriages
b. It will only need one door, as that's all that get's used anyway - and will make dispatch quicker as that door is the only one that will need checking.
c. Every commuter will be able to sit in the carriage closest to the exit at Reading
d. It'll save all those questions about "What carriage is my seat in?", preventing confusion and increasing passenger satisfaction.
I'm sure that the "bendy bus" technology can be developed enough to make the carriage fit around corners and at curved platforms.

What do you all think? Is it a pragmatic solution to the problem?

Also you get people blocking the vestibules so if you want to move to the mary Celeste Coach A, you cant becuse you have a bunch of human wreckage in the way. They would rather breathe in each others farts then walk a few more meters for some personal space.:roll: and people wonder why a lot of the UKs population is overwieght the lazy buggers.

That extra long coach may need to be made out of some extremely bendy steel.

Instead of 1st class and standard class why not have stupid and/or fat people class, then you have the common sense class. You get into the common sense class by taking a bi yearly exam to judge whether you are deserving enough to use the common sense class.

 

[Flamingo]

Also you get people blocking the vestibules so if you want to move to the mary Celeste Coach A, you cant becuse you have a bunch of human wreckage in the way. They would rather breathe in each others farts then walk a few more meters for some personal space.:roll: and people wonder why a lot of the UKs population is overwieght the lazy buggers.

That extra long coach may need to be made out of some extremely bendy steel.

Instead of 1st class and standard class why not have stupid and/or fat people class, then you have the common sense class. You get into the common sense class by taking a bi yearly exam to judge whether you are deserving enough to use the common sense class.

The stupid would only claim they were being discriminated against.

 

[ChrisCooper]

It will be interesting to see if the increasing use of full width gangways on trains (as in the 378 and S stock, and most likely Thameslink and Crossrail stock, and probably all future suburban and metro trains) does deal with this problem or if people still just cram at the back. I can understand on ungangwayed or partially gangwayed trains why it happens, as people arriving at the last minute board at the rear and then can't move up the train or can only move a certain distance, but many trains are gangwayed throughout and people still end up squashed at the back.

Perhaps station design is the answer, but nothing that could easily be included in existing stations. What would be needed would be multiple waiting areas along the platform, preferably linked by travelators for the mobility impaired (through choice or otherwise), for space purposes either above or below the platform level. Oviously multiple enterances and exits would help too. London Underground will often stagger the platform entry so as to improve the distribution of passengers. Maybe making sure the most heavily used stations have their enterance and exit at the country end would help, so people know if they squash on at the back then they are still going to have a long walk when they get off.

 

[Broken Viking]

What about allocating special stock to peak time services which has seating removed throughout the length of the train in every section except first class? That would allow each train to accommodate as many passengers as physically possible...And would do away with the lazy passenger problem too as - Being forced to stand throughout their journeys - They'd start to find themselves a little more active a week or two after that stock was introduced?

If they don't like it, there are other (Slower and oft more expensive) forms of transport available for them to choose from...

 

[pendolino]

It will be interesting to see if the increasing use of full width gangways on trains (as in the 378 and S stock, and most likely Thameslink and Crossrail stock

I was just about to mention 378s in light of flamingo's bendybus comment, because that's what 378s remind me of. Don't tell Boris though.

 

[westcoaster]

You do know that, that one door they all want to get in is magical, and tells you the winning lottery numbers, lol.

 

[43021HST]

The stupid would only claim they were being discriminated against.

Thats how you could be sure they were stupid then

 

[Mojo]

On the LM Great Escape on Saturday I discovered the answer to your problem.

Put a sliding door with an "open" button (as if it were an internal door between carriages) behind the driving cab and a large number of people will attempt to press the button to get into the cab.

 

[LE Greys]

For purely selfish reasons, I hope it never changes. I can sit back and relax in a half-empty Coach A, with only the sounds of a muffled MTU.

To be honest, the problem is mostly that people just don't think. Perhaps baiting them down the platform might be an answer, by placing evenly-spaced food/drink kiosks (or vending machines), each one giving out a different product. Tea drinkers could then get one coach, coffee drinkers the next, pastie eaters the next and so on.

Actually, smoking/non-smoking used to do something like that.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

On the LM Great Escape on Saturday I discovered the answer to your problem.

Put a sliding door with an "open" button (as if it were an internal door between carriages) behind the driving cab and a large number of people will attempt to press the button to get into the cab.

Or just mark the doors in carriage A as not for public use... Last Friday I was at St Pancras sitting on an HST waiting to depart and was observing the passengers for a 222 at the opposite platform; at least half of them tried to open the camouflaged staff only door at the end of the buffet / shop vehicle despite there being a clearly visible open red door 20 feet away at the end of the next carriage.....

 

[gordonthemoron]

friend caught a doubled up XC voyager from Manchester to Reading at xmas, set closest concourse at Picadilly was heaving, front set was largely empty. Some people?

 

[Aictos]

Or just mark the doors in carriage A as not for public use... Last Friday I was at St Pancras sitting on an HST waiting to depart and was observing the passengers for a 222 at the opposite platform; at least half of them tried to open the camouflaged staff only door at the end of the buffet / shop vehicle despite there being a clearly visible open red door 20 feet away at the end of the next carriage.....

This is normal, I remember last year meeting up one of my friends who's a FGW dispatcher and observing how FGW dispatch from Paddington compared to First Capital Connect and East Coast to see quite a number of commuters try to board the HST via the guard's door on the TGS only to be re-directed by staff to use the public door which like you have said above was only 20ft away and was closer to them then the staff door!

 

[jon0844]

I posted in another thread about the new FCC services (or strengthened ones) where the first carriage of 8 is packed, and the last has loads of free seats.

It's much easier to walk up (or down) a train via the platform so why not walk to the end, enjoy your seat and space, then get off in seconds and walk down - than queue to get off with all those who were standing.

Or, in my case, I always walk down to get my seat, then walk through the train to the back to get off first, as by the time I get to my station a lot of people have now got off.

However, as has been said here, in some respects I'm happy people don't use their brains as it means you get your choice of seats when everyone else is moaning and Tweeting that FCC still don't have enough seats!

 

[Daimler]

For purely selfish reasons, I hope it never changes. I can sit back and relax in a half-empty Coach A, with only the sounds of a muffled MTU.

Absolutely!

Out of pure selfishness, I always inwardly groan when station staff make announcements telling passengers where to stand - despite their doing so being an excellent idea!

 

[MCR247]

I posted in another thread about the new FCC services (or strengthened ones) where the first carriage of 8 is packed, and the last has loads of free seats.

It's much easier to walk up (or down) a train via the platform so why not walk to the end, enjoy your seat and space, then get off in seconds and walk down - than queue to get off with all those who were standing.

Or, in my case, I always walk down to get my seat, then walk through the train to the back to get off first, as by the time I get to my station a lot of people have now got off.

However, as has been said here, in some respects I'm happy people don't use their brains as it means you get your choice of seats when everyone else is moaning and Tweeting that FCC still don't have enough seats!

I was on the 1830 KGX - NCL, and I passed a 6 car 313 which in the last two carriages had people standing throughout, but then in the front carriage, it was pretty empty, same with SE services

 

[jon0844]

Some people do prefer to stand (perhaps they're getting off after 1 or 2 stops and don't fancy squeezing down an aisle blocked with bags or people) so even when you see people standing, it doesn't mean the train is full. I've tried to get on trains where the doorway is totally blocked, and people won't move down - then when you do finally get on, you can see there are actually seats available!

I've NEVER been unable to get off a busy train, so there is really no need to stand by the door. And if there are empty carriages further up, it's even more stupid.

 

[Geezertronic]

On the other side of the coin, I always find that there are a fair amount of people who trek up a Euston platform to sit in Coach A or a 390 (in normal formation). I am always one of them since I prefer the quiet coach.

 

[Aictos]

Some people do prefer to stand (perhaps they're getting off after 1 or 2 stops and don't fancy squeezing down an aisle blocked with bags or people) so even when you see people standing, it doesn't mean the train is full. I've tried to get on trains where the doorway is totally blocked, and people won't move down - then when you do finally get on, you can see there are actually seats available!

I've NEVER been unable to get off a busy train, so there is really no need to stand by the door. And if there are empty carriages further up, it's even more stupid.

If I'm travelling between Peterborough and Stevenage for example or London to Peterborough and it's a fairly busy service, I just sit by the door which if I'm going to Peterborough I know which door to sit by

 

[jon0844]

On the other side of the coin, I always find that there are a fair amount of people who trek up a Euston platform to sit in Coach A or a 390 (in normal formation). I am always one of them since I prefer the quiet coach.

Well, there's a specific reason to do so - but FCC don't have quiet carriages. They just have carriages that passengers are too lazy to walk to!

Maybe FCC should just label the last coach 'the empty coach' and have a sign on the platform to say:

Board through first set of doors to stand in vestibule and be uncomfortable for your journey. Board at the far end for empty coach, with a seat and comfort. Go on, walk up the platform.. give it a try.

I am sure people would ignore such a sign anyway, so there's no chance the last coach would suddenly fill up!

 

[Aictos]

That is true Jon on the other hand, passengers will like lemmings go for a particular door never mind the fact that they've walked by a couple of doors or the fact that you can actually walk between carriages within a unit to get a seat :roll: