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Efficent Germans

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ole man

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Whilst in Germany last week i travelled on board various DB journeys including the ICE, i instantly noticed the difference in the quality of service both countries give the paying passenger.
Every single train i travelled on was in time, and very clean.
The train crew staff were brilliant and understood my northern accent, although i was born there so i might be slightly biased.
Does this have something to do with the fact that in the Fatherland the railway is run by DB and not various companies in the uk trying to make a quick buck.:cry:
 
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Yew

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You mean ran by DB with enough funding to actually run a railway, instead of on a shoestring like BR
 

ole man

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Good point, though having pride in our services does make a big difference, i do think that BR did try there best
 

Schnellzug

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You must've been lucky then, as DB's punctuality, particularly with long distance services, has been not particularly outstanding inn the last few years.

Incidentally, the local & regional services are put out to tender in a basically similar way to the UK; DB bid in competition with others, and there's an enormous number of private operators. DB only really has a monopoly of inter-city services (there are one or two open access operators, but they're hardly worth bothering about).
 

ole man

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Lucky!! every train i went on was on time, i was going 300km/h on what was a few years ago the same infrastructure trains rumbled at the same speeds as the UK.
The UK 'upgraded' the WCML for what? a mere 25mph increase and talk about it like it's the best in europe.
 

Yew

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Personally I think that the intercity toc's should be made public (Ec Wc and MML Plus the GWML). And the rest of the lines franchised out. Meaning that the taxpayer takes the profits, and use it to fund the subsidiaries on the privatised lines.
 

ole man

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Also the fear that DB put into the people if not carrying a valid ticket.
No barriers just a validation machine and everybody uses it, if they had that in the UK people would just walk on and not care
 

Schnellzug

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Personally I think that the intercity toc's should be made public (Ec Wc and MML Plus the GWML). And the rest of the lines franchised out. Meaning that the taxpayer takes the profits, and use it to fund the subsidiaries on the privatised lines.

By made public do you mean nationalised? I think it should be just the opposite. The inter-city routes should be run commercially, since there's plenty of choice and scope for competition, and the commuter & rural lines run as a not-for-profit basis or, if absolutely unavoidable, by a state-owned venture. And certainly profits should not be paid to the Government, which gets more than enough from everyone as it is.
 

ole man

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If the main lines are kept as the are do you think any private TOC would spend there money on upgrading there patch?.
All TOC's are only in it for the profit and no other reason
 

Schnellzug

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Do you think they'd spend a single penny upgrading their patch? If they lose customers from poor service, it would be only sensible. Anyway, i'm not necessarily advocating vertical Integration, there'd still be some sort of organisation to look after the big projects.
If it was genuinely in the operators' interests to encourage more people to use them, like with any other business, they might be less prepared to put up with poor service from the infrastructure provider.
 

ole man

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What can any TOC do about the poor infrastructure? do you know how much it costs to upgrade or even electrify a route?
Take Northern rail as a example, where would they get the money from to buy new trains the people of the north deserve, instead of sitting on a bouncy, relic class 142's
 

kylemore

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Maybe what ole man is getting at is the "Ethos" of the service?
There is a difference, there is an air of proffesionalism that is lacking here.
And even on our best lines there is nothing to compare with the billiard table smoothness of the track.
 

starrymarkb

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Whilst in Germany last week i travelled on board various DB journeys including the ICE, i instantly noticed the difference in the quality of service both countries give the paying passenger.
Every single train i travelled on was in time, and very clean.
The train crew staff were brilliant and understood my northern accent, although i was born there so i might be slightly biased.
Does this have something to do with the fact that in the Fatherland the railway is run by DB and not various companies in the uk trying to make a quick buck.:cry:

DB are not exactly popular in Germany, have they uncrocked the ICE-Ts yet? And the less said about the Berlin S-Bahn debacale (Bombardier Build Quality ;))
 
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Incidentally, the local & regional services are put out to tender in a basically similar way to the UK; .

Do the Germans tender their local rail service exactly the same as we do ? That is, the private operator is responsible for collecting and retaining fares, setting fares within prescribed limits and setting fares restriction.

Or is it more like London buses where the state sets and collects the fares, and giving contractual money to the private operator ?
 

gordonthemoron

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The DB €40 fine for not having a valid ticket only applies to Regio & S-Bahn trains. It does not apply to ICE/IC/EC services.

The ICE-Ts are uncrocked, have been for some time.

As for the Berlin S-Bahn fiasco, that was more down to (lack of) DB maintenance
 

WestCoast

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Or is it more like London buses where the state sets and collects the fares, and giving contractual money to the private operator ?

It's done like that on a Gross Tendering basis. The regional state government pays the operators directly (mostly on a per route basis), and the local 'PTEs' set the fares on local/regional services in their area. Almost every area (regardless of whether it's an urban area or not) is covered by a PTE.

You must've been lucky then, as DB's punctuality, particularly with long distance services, has been not particularly outstanding inn the last few years.

Incidentally, the local & regional services are put out to tender in a basically similar way to the UK; DB bid in competition with others, and there's an enormous number of private operators. DB only really has a monopoly of inter-city services (there are one or two open access operators, but they're hardly worth bothering about).

The system is not like the UK. The contracted operators cannot set fares, they aren't responsible for stations, they are fully integrated with DB services and other public transport and they are contracted by a regional authority (as opposed to a DfT-type agency). It's not unusual to see an operator with just one route. The UK uses Net Tendering. Please don't think I am being fussy, there is quite a big difference in terms of what the passenger sees (fully integrated fares e.t.c).

Yes, DB's punctuality has slipped. However, a long-distance train is considered as being late by more stringent criteria than the UK. Connections are often held, which can have a positive and negative effect on journeys and punctuality records.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
DB are not exactly popular in Germany, have they uncrocked the ICE-Ts yet? And the less said about the Berlin S-Bahn debacale (Bombardier Build Quality ;))

Are most TOCs popular here? People will always criticize, one look at the twitter feeds to UK TOCs says it all. The press give rail an even worse image. If you took all that at face value, what would you think?

The best thing about DB over the UK TOCs is the ticketing if you ask me. It's FAR more sensible than the UK. To be able to purchase a one year whole-country pass (with virtually no restrictions) for around 3,800 euros is a very good offer. The ticketing is the problem in the UK, it's fragmented and confusing to travellers without a lot of ticketing knowledge. If you're not super savvy on some journeys, you will get ripped off.

Another thing is the unequal distribution of new stock. When I visit relatives living in the state of NRW, most local services have new Bombarider TALENTs, Stadtler FLIRTs or consist of push-pull double decker stock. Even the older push-pull regional stock, makes Northern's Pacers on busy commuter routes look ridiculous! It just feels as if there is much more capacity available to cope with demand.

In short, no it's not a perfect system by any means. However, from an enthusiast and short-distance commuter point of view (I have been one over there briefly), I'd take the German system, at least in the Hannover area. It's the ETHOS of the system, which feels more passenger orientated rather than profit driven.
 
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gordonthemoron

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my IC last night from Düsseldorf to Cologne was 25 mins late, so I missed by connection there and arrived in Munich an hour late. This is not at all uncommon. Plus the DB website often shows services with ridiculously short connection times.
 

WestCoast

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my IC last night from Düsseldorf to Cologne was 25 mins late, so I missed by connection there and arrived in Munich an hour late. This is not at all uncommon. Plus the DB website often shows services with ridiculously short connection times.

No, but it's common enough over here too! I visit a town near the Dutch border, and I find NS trains to be more punctual, but rather more expensive than DB for occasional travellers (there's no weekend offer, regional saver e.t.c). Plus, the Dutch have awful ticket machines that never seem to want to accept cash or foreign cards!
 

WestCoast

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yes, Dutch ticket machines really are rubbish, we're spoilt by the DB machines

I often arrive at Enschede station (near Germany), the machine won't accept cash, it won't take any card except Maestro. The ticket office (if open) levies a service fee.

At least DB make it quite easy to buy a ticket! I know they want everyone to use a Chipkaart on NS, but come on!
 
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It's done like that on a Gross Tendering basis.

The UK uses Net Tendering. Please don't think I am being fussy, there is quite a big difference in terms of what the passenger sees (fully integrated fares e.t.c)
.

Agreed. There's a difference between net and gross tendering.

In the UK net tendering means that the TOCs are responsible for collecting and retaining fares to cover their costs. TOCs get a subsidy or pay premium from/to the DfT. This means the TOCs decide and enforce fares restrictions and penalties because it will effect their profits.

Introduction of ticket barriers, ever more complex and restrictive walk-on fares, on board announcements about transgressions for travelling on the wrong ticket and rising car park charges are an every day part of UK rail travel. Because it's down to the TOCs to maximise revenue.

There are fewer German long distance rail tickets: unrestricted singles and several advance purchased tickets, and that's it. And above all, Deutsche Bahn presents InterCity rail travel as a national product for everybody. And there's one web site for all your travel needs.

Where as in Britain, we have numerous rail web sites, many offering discounts specific to that web site or for a particular TOC. There's even Trainline.com which is always the most expensive way to buy a rail ticket. I have no idea how overseas visitors cope with rail travel in the UK.

UK politicians have neither gumption, vision nor intelligence to sort the mess of our railways. As the late Robert Adley MP said, UK railways have become a poll tax on wheels. If you listen carefully, you can hear him spinning in his grave.
 

WestCoast

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You make some excellent points. Yes, DB, NS, OBB e.t.c all have their faults, but overall they present a complete product that seems to be run for the benefit of passengers (even if they don't always get it quite right!). There is a lot more consistency in the products and rules, and that makes the system simpler.

Don't forget, that most on this forum do have an attachment to the UK railways and know how to work around this confusing mess. For the occasional user or international visitor, it's most definitely a different story.
 

stuartmoss

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In my experience the German rail system has been fantastic. I work out there every month and often travel long distances on ICE, including Frankfurt - Weimar / Frankfurt - Leipzig / Dresden, as well as numerous local journeys and I have to say that I can count the number of really delayed trains (on arrival) I've had on one hand. OK every now and again one is funf minuten schpaten (5 mins late) and sometimes a little more, but I always seem to arrive at my destinations on time. Last year I was travelling from Frankfurt to Ilmenau with three changes (only 9 minutes between trains) and everything went like clockwork. The only severe delay I have had was a train from Dresden to Prague, which wasn't a DB train anyway, but that was 90 minutes late arriving, although it meant that I got to see a steam train go through the Hbf which was a bonus.

I love how when I book my tickets online and print it out it tells me the service number, platform number, times of departure and arrival - it's pretty idiot proof to be honest...the platforms even tell you which coach will stop where, although this isn't ALWAYS accurate, and the seat reservation system took me a bit of detective work and luck to get my head around!

Honestly speaking I think the DB overall service is absolutely marvellous, I've just this minute booked Berlin to Dresden - 19 Euros - BARGAIN!
 

junglejames

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You make some excellent points. Yes, DB, NS, OBB e.t.c all have their faults, but overall they present a complete product that seems to be run for the benefit of passengers (even if they don't always get it quite right!). There is a lot more consistency in the products and rules, and that makes the system simpler.

Don't forget, that most on this forum do have an attachment to the UK railways and know how to work around this confusing mess. For the occasional user or international visitor, it's most definitely a different story.

Im often very quick to stick up for the UK rail system when comparing to other nations, however even I will agree that our ticketing system (mainly brought about by the disastrous privatisation), is an absolute nightmare, and an embarasment.
However, when it comes to the actual trains, we are often quite lucky in the UK. I find the new ICEs very uncomfortable, although admittedly they look very smart. Take our 225s, and GNERs refurbishment of the 125s, and you have arguably some of the finest stock in Europe.
 

WestCoast

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However, when it comes to the actual trains, we are often quite lucky in the UK. I find the new ICEs very uncomfortable, although admittedly they look very smart. Take our 225s, and GNERs refurbishment of the 125s, and you have arguably some of the finest stock in Europe.

I find the ICEs of all generations to be fine examples of long-distance stock. Spacious, plenty of table seats, a forward viewing lounge, compartments of 6 available (when did you last seem them in the UK!), a proper bar-buffet and smart interior touches.

I prefer them to Pendos, Voyagers, FGW HSTs and class 373s.

As for the local fleet in the UK, it's variable dependant on region. Here on Northern, well shabby 142s and 150s are what we get.
 
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87015

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I'd take DBs local fleet over a battered Northern Pacer anyday. I don't care how nostalgic and quirky Pacers are supposed to be, they aren't commuter trains.

And the majority (well, damn near anyway) German commuter trains will be much more like this this which whilst they are not the most comfortable trains ever are good enough for two hour RE runs and knock a 150/350 whatever out the park every day of the week.

Are there any old DMUs knocking around Germany any more? From what I've seen it all seems to be new/newish carts of whatever description which are pretty much comparable with 185/350 type stuff. No 3+2 seating to be seen though...

ICE1 vs Pendo or ICE-TD vs Voyager? Lets not even go there - Virgin obviously didn't have a look...
 

WestCoast

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And the majority (well, damn near anyway) German commuter trains will be much more like this this which whilst they are not the most comfortable trains ever are good enough for two hour RE runs and knock a 150/350 whatever out the park every day of the week.

All the Regional-Express services seem to be push-pull double deckers (dostos as they're called) in the NRW and Niedersachsen states, although I believe that gordonthemoron was saying down south they've replaced some of them with single-decker EMUs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are there any old DMUs knocking around Germany any more? From what I've seen it all seems to be new/newish carts of whatever description which are pretty much comparable with 185/350 type stuff. No 3+2 seating to be seen though...

There's still the N-Wagen push-pull sets on some regional services.
 
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yorksrob

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By made public do you mean nationalised? I think it should be just the opposite. The inter-city routes should be run commercially, since there's plenty of choice and scope for competition, and the commuter & rural lines run as a not-for-profit basis or, if absolutely unavoidable, by a state-owned venture. And certainly profits should not be paid to the Government, which gets more than enough from everyone as it is.

But why should the private sector be allowed to cream off all of the profitable routes, leaving the taxpayer to subsidise everything else ! Profitable routes should subsidise and fund local routes, which in turn feed the main line with connecting passengers.

I believe that any cross-subsidy should go directly across the railway rather than via the Government though.
 

gordonthemoron

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there are still ancient 2 car dmus around Munich, SA uses them Dachau-Altomunster, also Munich-Muhldorf and last time we did it, Neufahrn (Niederbayern)-Straubing. However, a lot of routes are being taken over by private rail companies with newer trains
 
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