Effect of strike on Tuesday 26 May?

[VauxhallandI]

They have had months to discuss it and did exactly that. But giving the public more time to make plans also allows the company more time to make plans and thus weakens the position of the union/employees.

Yes it would a tad but not enough to negate the overall affect?

 

[bb21]

I'm getting a plane and a one and a half hour taxi. It's not a alternative that is particularly great.

But how does not allowing last minute cancellation of strikes help you?

 

[VauxhallandI]

So once the strike is called it must go ahead!

What happens if during the week between its called and the strike taking place a more sensible offer is made, should they-
A, carry on with the strike and then put it to the membership, causing inconvenience to everyone who wanted to travel that day or
B, postpone the strike and put it to the membership straight away minimising the disruption to hose who couldn't/wouldn't wait to see if a resolution was possible!

Anyone would think this situation was unique to the railways and it had never happened before in any other industry!

Surely they will learn to make the sensible offer before the deadline which just happens to be seven revolutions of the earth before.

 

[A-driver]

I'm getting a plane and a one and a half hour taxi. It's not a alternative that is particularly great.

Good for you. Now that the strikes are off you will find the airports and roads much quieter so t will be a better and easier journey for you than if the strike stayed on with nothing to gain from it.

 

[bb21]

What is possible for one day is not always convenient for a longer period of time - the railways are still essential. At my work we had already discussed and agreed our alternate working arrangements for Tuesday before the end of yesterday, subsequently declared moot so it's business as usual for us, but they would never have been workable for more than a couple of days.

Why not stick to the alternative arrangement since everyone already agreed to it?

 

[VauxhallandI]

But how does not allowing last minute cancellation of strikes help you?

Then at least my re-arrangement wouldn't have been a waste of time.

I can't cancel my re-arrangement so we are out of pocket to boot

 

[A-driver]

Surely they will learn to make the sensible offer before the deadline which just happens to be seven revolutions of the earth before.

What? Go away and read up on this kind of stuff as your posts are getting more and more obscene and show a total lack of understanding of even the most basic principles of negotiations! Please do yourself a about and do some research!

 

[sprinterguy]

Then you can just stick with the alternative travel plans if the strike is cancelled, so you are not losing anything compared to if the strike went ahead.

Again, people may have lost out on a day of business (small business owners) or perhaps a day of holiday (visiting friends or relatives) by having to arrange to travel at a different time. They also stand to lose a good deal of money if the railway company will not refund the price of their original tickets (dependent on the ticket type) or they are unable to get their heads around the convoluted refund processes the railway has in place.

 

[A-driver]

Again, people may have lost out on a day of business (small business owners) or perhaps a day of holiday (visiting friends or relatives) by having to arrange to travel at a different time. They also stand to lose a good deal of money if the railway company will not refund the price of their original tickets (dependent on the ticket type) or they are unable to get their heads around the convoluted refund processes the railway has in place.

But even if the strike goes ahead that will be the case. It makes no difference except that it inconveniences hundreds of thousands of others for no reason!

 

[VauxhallandI]

Good for you. Now that the strikes are off you will find the airports and roads much quieter so t will be a better and easier journey for you than if the strike stayed on with nothing to gain from it.

Good for me? I don't understand that. I'm happy about having to re arrange the trip for three, the costs and the roundabout nature of the trip. How is it good for me?

 

[bb21]

Then at least my re-arrangement wouldn't have been a waste of time.

I can't cancel my re-arrangement so we are out of pocket to boot

So you are trying to stop others from benefiting from the cancellation of a strike out of spite?

 

[sprinterguy]

Why not stick to the alternative arrangement since everyone already agreed to it?

Because as that post alludes to, the alternative arrangements were not ideal, but what was required given the circumstances. This is presumably the case for many who have had to consider their alternatives.

 

[A-driver]

Good for me? I don't understand that. I'm happy about having to re arrange the trip for three, the costs and the roundabout nature of the trip. How is it good for me?

But keeping the strike on won't make any difference to you. You would still have to make your alternate arrangements and hundreds of thousands of others would face needless disruption. You are complaining the strike is off and many others will benefit purely out of spite!

 

[Tetchytyke]

After that seven day deadline is reached then there are no more talks.

So both sides are in agreement to suspend a strike, and you want to force it through anyway?

Insanity.

 

[VauxhallandI]

What? Go away and read up on this kind of stuff as your posts are getting more and more obscene and show a total lack of understanding of even the most basic principles of negotiations! Please do yourself a about and do some research!

Obscene?

As a professional buyer I think I know how to conduct a negotiation thank you very much. Maybe we should hire in a driver to do it so we can all learn a thing or two.

 

[A-driver]

Because as that post alludes to, the alternative arrangements were not ideal, but what was required given the circumstances. This is presumably the case for many who have had to consider their alternatives.

Then go back to plan a and catch the flippin' train!

Heavens sake, we understand it has caused inconvenience to you but don't complain that travel nightmares have been averted for many, many thousands of others! You are only arguing out of spite.
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Obscene?



As a professional buyer I think I know how to conduct a negotiation thank you very much. Maybe we should hire in a driver to do it so we can all learn a thing or two.

Clearly you don't understand employment negotiations though-you have proved that many, many times in this thread and are still refusing to read the info posted for you! Please do some reading now.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I do expect you to trawl through it all as if you are going to make these suggestions and then get hugely defensive when I point out that they are flawed I think the least I can expect is that you will read up on the subject you claim to know enough about to be so defensive!

You actually told me that you "do know what you are on about 'thank you'" despite clearly not knowing what you were on about and now admitting that not only are you not familiar with the legislation but are unwilling to read through it.

This kind of legislation is hugely complicated and we can't give you a 3minute summary, you need to read the documents which people have gone out of their way to post for you.

Take a break from theory rum to go away and read up on this then once you know a bit about it come back and have this discussion, it will be far easier for everyone.

I think the quickest route would be for you to just help the situation by explaining why having a seven day stand still period after a strike deadline is illegal.

I can't understand you reluctance to do this as it would put the idea to bed in a shot and we could all move on.

 

[sprinterguy]

Good for you. Now that the strikes are off you will find the airports and roads much quieter so t will be a better and easier journey for you than if the strike stayed on with nothing to gain from it.

The spirit of British Rail, circa early nineteen seventies, has been conjured up: "We thank you for your lost custom, you will now find the alternatives you have chosen far more agreeable."

(Note that this post is meant to be jovial in its generalisation, not directed specifically at yourself, A-driver)

 

[bb21]

Because as that post alludes to, the alternative arrangements were not ideal, but what was required given the circumstances. This is presumably the case for many who have had to consider their alternatives.

It would still be lost business had the strike gone ahead. It is not going to get any worse than that if the strike were called off. If by having to change things again because of the cancellation the business would lose even more money then they could just stick to their original "revised" plans.

It is not ideal that there were talks of a strike, and many businesses probably suffered some losses, but as I asked before, how does not allowing a potential strike to be called off help?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Then go back to plan a and catch the flippin' train!

Heavens sake, we understand it has caused inconvenience to you but don't complain that travel nightmares have been averted for many, many thousands of others! You are only arguing out of spite.
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I'm arguing out of experience. Why am I spiteful, I am not anti striking in the slightest. Just looking for a better way of doing it but you seem hell bent on saying it is illegal but not not offering an explanation or any ideas on how to improve things. Maybe there isn't a way but your defensiveness is pretty sour.


Clearly you don't understand employment negotiations though-you have proved that many, many times in this thread and are still refusing to read the info posted for you! Please do some reading now.

No I am not an employment law specialist at all but I know about deadlines and I know about stand still periods.
The reason why a seven day period is illegal has not been posted. Maybe I can read the entire act on my flight next week!

 

[Chrism20]

No it's not a secret to the public!

That's the whole point, it doesn't have to be a secret to the public, is this the law stuff people have been going on about but are unwilling to actually stipulate what part of the law they are referring to. Yet expect me to trawl through the whole act out of bloody mindedness?

The publics can know the result of the ballot but have the reassurance of a breathing period where arrangements can be made.
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I fail to see what difference the 7 days makes. You've had months to discuss it.

You just move those last minute talks forward seven days, they know the consequences as well as they do for the deadline as is at the moment. There is no difference apart from it being useful to the customer.

As someone who works in HR (But not in a business that is heavily unionised) what you are suggesting is outrageous.

The public would be up in arms if the strike were to go ahead when it didn't need to.

 

[A-driver]

I think the quickest route would be for you to just help the situation by explaining why having a seven day stand still period after a strike deadline is illegal.



I can't understand you reluctance to do this as it would put the idea to bed in a shot and we could all move on.

The 7 day deadline is one of the wort ideas I've ever heard of! It jut benefits no one and would be hugely criticised by the majority of people. Can you imagine the uproar if they announced the strike 7 days in advance then said 'and we are not going to continue talks or make any effort whatsoever to avert all of this travel disruption by continuing negotiations?! You are on a different planet here!

You carry on with your plans and pretend the strike goes ahead if it makes you happier but let the rest of the country enjoy the fact that the railways are now open next week and they can now travel! You are on your own with this one.

 

[sprinterguy]

Then go back to plan a and catch the flippin' train!

Heavens sake, we understand it has caused inconvenience to you but don't complain that travel nightmares have been averted for many, many thousands of others! You are only arguing out of spite.

Don't be presumptious. I have no idea how many people might have had to change their travel plans, but my assumption would be that it would be a significant minority as the bank holiday Monday is a significant period of travel for leisure travellers who will in many cases booked the cheapest tickets they could find far in advance. The threat of a strike made little difference to me personally. I am arguing for a common sense approach that benefits the passengers, though I appreciate, having worked within it, that the railway often becomes defensive against ideas that could be deemed "common sense" (recognising that this is a different situation if there are also legal implications).

 

[A-driver]

No I am not an employment law specialist at all but I know about deadlines and I know about stand still periods.

The reason why a seven day period is illegal has not been posted. Maybe I can read the entire act on my flight next week!

Lol-great so you know all about a load of completely irrelevant stuff...that dosnt help when you are talking about something different.

And yes, good idea-read up on this on the flight. Then come back here and we can continue the conversation properly rather than having to continually correct you!

 

[bb21]

No I am not an employment law specialist at all but I know about deadlines and I know about stand still periods.
The reason why a seven day period is illegal has not been posted. Maybe I can read the entire act on my flight next week!

I don't think that is what he is saying. It is your claim that negotiations should be behind closed doors and the intention to strike not be announced that is illegal.

But regardless, your proposal to set such a deadline has no benefits, which is why so many people are against it. The only reason I can see why you want it is out of spite because your alternative arrangements this time has apparently been a waste due to the cancellation.

I can understand your annoyance about the whole episode because it cost you a lot of money, but your proposal helps no one - no one at all.

 

[A-driver]

Don't be presumptious. I have no idea how many people might have had to change their travel plans, but my assumption would be that it would be a significant minority as the bank holiday Monday is a significant period of travel for leisure travellers who will in many cases booked the cheapest tickets they could find far in advance. The threat of a strike made little difference to me personally. I am arguing for a common sense approach that benefits the passengers, though I appreciate, having worked within it, that the railway often becomes defensive against ideas that could be deemed "common sense" (recognising that this is a different situation if there are also legal implications).

But there is absolutely no common sense in carrying out a pointless strike and making no effort to avert it allowing people to use the railways again for three days!

 

[bb21]

I think I'm out, as I will just end up repeating the same question and making the same point over and over again.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I don't think that is what he is saying. It is your claim that negotiations should be behind closed doors and the intention to strike not be announced that is illegal.

But regardless, your proposal to set such a deadline has no benefits, which is why so many people are against it. The only reason I can see why you want it is out of spite because your alternative arrangements this time has apparently been a waste due to the cancellation.

I can understand your annoyance about the whole episode because it cost you a lot of money, but your proposal helps no one - no one at all.

No I was. Or suggesting that at all. So the idea whether liked or not is not illegal? I was failing to see what was illegal about it but was willing to be corrected.

These "last minute" concessions are not new ideas thought of at the last minute, they are brought out on the table at the last minute to avoid the strike.

So,why is it so hard to get the concept that if you move the deadline then the situation is exactly the same. As long as the new system was stuck to then the company would realise that this is time to to play the last minute card. In effect the strike starts (albeit in a virtual fashion until the seven days are over) at the deadline as it would presently.

Whether you agree about the inconvenience or not the system would work. It would only take the first time when the company offers a concession during the seven day period to be rebuffed for them to learn the lesson that the time for the last ditch offer has really moved.

 

[sprinterguy]

I can understand your annoyance about the whole episode because it cost you a lot of money, but your proposal helps no one - no one at all.

Letting people know what will happen a suitable amount of time in advance seems preferable to me compared to suggesting what might happen and leaving that subject to change until the last minute.

However, I believe that I have taken my part in this discussion as far as it can go before it becomes meaninglessly repetitive, so I'll check out for now.
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I think I'm out, as I will just end up repeating the same question and making the same point over and over again.

At least we're in agreement there.

 

[A-driver]

No I was. Or suggesting that at all. So the idea whether liked or not is not illegal? I was failing to see what was illegal about it but was willing to be corrected.



These "last minute" concessions are not new ideas thought of at the last minute, they are brought out on the table at the last minute to avoid the strike.



So,why is it so hard to get the concept that if you move the deadline then the situation is exactly the same. As long as the new system was stuck to then the company would realise that this is time to to play the last minute card. In effect the strike starts (albeit in a virtual fashion until the seven days are over) at the deadline as it would presently.



Whether you agree about the inconvenience or not the system would work. It would only take the first time when the company offers a concession during the seven day period to be rebuffed for them to learn the lesson that the time for the last ditch offer has really moved.

But is wouldn't work as simply as that, it's against human nature. The imminent strike looming focuses both sides to sort the issues out to avoid the action absolutely nobody wants or benefits from. That period between the strike being announced and confirmed and actually starting is the most crucial and productive part of the talks.

My issue is that the suggestion to not carry on negotiating once the strike is confirmed is absolutely ludicrous and has no benefits to anyone. You would still be out of pocket as you are now. At least this way hundreds of thousands of others will be able to use the trains!