Effect of strike on Tuesday 26 May?

[A-driver]

Maggie T, wash your mouth out!
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I found this link http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00596/SN00596.pdf



Which lists the affects of the various changes. I can't find anything that says my suggested process is illegal.



Happy to shown I've missed it!

Keep reading up on the statutory notice to be served prior to IA commencing and you'll find out the flaws with your plans.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm quite clear on what I am "on about" thank you.

Have a private negotiation.

Call a private ballot

Get a majority ok to strike.

Privately state a date for a strike if you don't get movement with a deadline.

If the deadline is reached and no movement is gained then announce the strike to the public and get on with it and do it.

Quite simple.

Where is the incentive for the company to settle any earlier?

All that achieves is it gives the company more time to make alternative arrangements to cover the strike - presumably the employer could still make an offer 4 days before the strike in the hope of it being called off?

 

[jopsuk]

Johngill100, you're missing here that the public threat of massive disruption is part of the negotiating process- it's part of the PR battle. Forcing it all to be done in private would substantially weaken the union.

And your proposal seems to leave a week long period where a strike has been called and there's no way that it is allowed to be called off? In who's interest is that? Honestly? It's a really bizarre proposal.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Rail Staff who aren't involved have to get into work as well.Reckon my depot is going to be hit but not sure about other depots.

 

[Chrism20]

Maggie T, wash your mouth out!
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I found this link http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00596/SN00596.pdf

Which lists the affects of the various changes. I can't find anything that says my suggested process is illegal.

Happy to shown I've missed it!

Try this one, it is the actual act

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/24/contents

 

[VauxhallandI]

Johngill100, you're missing here that the public threat of massive disruption is part of the negotiating process- it's part of the PR battle. Forcing it all to be done in private would substantially weaken the union.

And your proposal seems to leave a week long period where a strike has been called and there's no way that it is allowed to be called off? In who's interest is that? Honestly? It's a really bizarre proposal.

I see what you are saying but the end result of a strike is still the result so the penalty to the Company is still the same.

Yes there is a week long period (as per the law!) but this gives the customer time to make arrangements, arrangements that won't need to be cancelled or paid for anyway by a last minute change.

Can anyone see another method were there is still the tool of a strike available to the union without the dicking of the public when it is changed?

I'm looking for solutions.

 

[sprinterguy]

And your proposal seems to leave a week long period where a strike has been called and there's no way that it is allowed to be called off? In who's interest is that? Honestly? It's a really bizarre proposal.

Sounds like an eminently sensible suggestion to me as a passenger. Shame about the legality of it, though I appreciate your point about it weakening the position of the unions.

As it is, a number of passengers have been affected by the talk of strikes (changing or cancelling travel plans, or cancelling, altering or buying new tickets) as deeply as if the strike had gone ahead in the first place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds like an eminently sensible suggestion to me as a passenger.

Eh?

If you make alternative plans as a result of a strike, nothing is stopping you sticking to them if it doesn't go ahead.

The one thing I would say is that refunds without admin fee should still be offered even if the strike is called off, because passengers have had to make alternative arrangements.

 

[sprinterguy]

Eh?

If you make alternative plans as a result of a strike, nothing is stopping you sticking to them if it doesn't go ahead.

No, but you've still potentially lost a day of work, income or perhaps a holiday in order to pander to the whims of "the railway", which wouldn't have happened if they had kept it all behind closed doors and had their discussions prior to an agreed deadline announcement date. Along with the additional stress that comes from having to plan new itineraries and book new tickets - which are going to cost money, and gawd knows if there's any chance of recouping the cost of the original tickets. I doubt it.

I for one am glad that all the friends I have visiting this weekend from various reaches of the north are all driving - it's saved them so much hassle.

 

[bb21]

Eh?

If you make alternative plans as a result of a strike, nothing is stopping you sticking to them if it doesn't go ahead.

The one thing I would say is that refunds without admin fee should still be offered even if the strike is called off, because passengers have had to make alternative arrangements.

I agree. There is nothing at all to gain by not allowing last-minute cancellation of industrial action provided that the easements to be allowed had the strike gone ahead are still honoured.

A truly bizarre suggestion.

No, but you've still potentially lost a day of work, income or perhaps a holiday in order to pander to the whims of "the railway", which wouldn't have happened if they had kept it all behind closed doors and had their discussions prior to an agreed deadline announcement date. Along with the additional stress that comes from having to plan new itineraries and book new tickets - which are going to cost money, and gawd knows if there's any chance of recouping the cost of the original tickets. I doubt it.

I for one am glad that all the friends I have visiting this weekend from various reaches of the north are all driving - it's saved them so much hassle.

Keep all discussions behind closed doors, and no resolution, then what? Announce the strike with 24 hours to go? With 12 hours to go? When do you announce it?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Eh?

If you make alternative plans as a result of a strike, nothing is stopping you sticking to them if it doesn't go ahead.

The one thing I would say is that refunds without admin fee should still be offered even if the strike is called off, because passengers have had to make alternative arrangements.

I am sticking to my alternative plans but they cost a lot more, take longer and are less comfortable.
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I agree. There is nothing at all to gain by not allowing last-minute cancellation of industrial action provided that the easements to be allowed had the strike gone ahead are still honoured.

A truly bizarre suggestion.

It's really not that bizarre, you just move the ultimatum forward. In fact it is essentially exactly the same but there is a period of seven days for the company and its customers to get their alternatives in order.

I think the present system is rather bizarre.
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I agree. There is nothing at all to gain by not allowing last-minute cancellation of industrial action provided that the easements to be allowed had the strike gone ahead are still honoured.

A truly bizarre suggestion.



Keep all discussions behind closed doors, and no resolution, then what? Announce the strike with 24 hours to go? With 12 hours to go? When do you announce it?

No there has to be seven days notice of the strike. 24 hours is a bizarre suggestion, very similar to calling it off with 24 hours notice which seems to be perfectly acceptable at the moment.

 

[GB]

In a company consisting of 1000's, do you really think its feasible to keep such an issue secret from the public? Or are you also saying the employees should be kept in the dark as well?

 

[sprinterguy]

Keep all discussions behind closed doors, and no resolution, then what? Announce the strike with 24 hours to go? With 12 hours to go? When do you announce it?

As Johngill100 says, seven days before seems reasonable. Rather than announcing the intention to strike seven days before the proposed strike date, and then four days before going, oh no, wait a minute actually we don't need to bother. Would save a lot of hassle all round.
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In a company consisting of 1000's, do you really think its feasible to keep such an issue secret from the public? Or are you also saying the employees should be kept in the dark as well?

Granted, that's a clear problem. In an industry employing thousands a leak is bound to happen, and better to announce it officially than via Chinese whispers or a leak to the press. Don't suppose there's many ways of getting around that.

 

[GB]

As Johngill100 says, seven days before seems reasonable. Rather than announcing the intention to strike seven days before the proposed strike date, and then four days before going, oh no, wait a minute actually we don't need to bother. Would save a lot of hassle all round.

...and in those 7 days more talks are held and it gets called off with a few days to go? Just be in the same situation as now.

 

[sprinterguy]

...and in those 7 days more talks are held and it gets called off with a few days to go? Just be in the same situation as now.

After that seven day deadline is reached then there are no more talks. It's just the same as reaching the strike date, or the agreed end of discussions, as at present, but with a longer lieu period following.

 

[GB]

So after that 7 days your committed to striking?

I don't see what benefit that has to the vast majority of people.

 

[A-driver]

After that seven day deadline is reached then there are no more talks. It's just the same as reaching the strike date, or the agreed end of discussions, as at present, but with a longer lieu period following.

So you then waste everyone's time and cause needless disruption as the clock turns an exact 7 days away and all talks stop despite the fact that a solution which would prevent a strike is very, very close?!

It will just cause completely pointless strikes and help no one.

If you made alternative plans for this strike then you can still stick to them if it's easier.

 

[sprinterguy]

So after that 7 days your committed to striking?

I don't see what benefit that has to the vast majority of people.

Yes, because then people know full well whether they need to make alternate arrangements or not. None of this "will they, won't they" uncertainty a handful of days before they need to travel.

 

[VauxhallandI]

In a company consisting of 1000's, do you really think its feasible to keep such an issue secret from the public? Or are you also saying the employees should be kept in the dark as well?

No it's not a secret to the public!

That's the whole point, it doesn't have to be a secret to the public, is this the law stuff people have been going on about but are unwilling to actually stipulate what part of the law they are referring to. Yet expect me to trawl through the whole act out of bloody mindedness?

The publics can know the result of the ballot but have the reassurance of a breathing period where arrangements can be made.
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So you then waste everyone's time and cause needless disruption as the clock turns an exact 7 days away and all talks stop despite the fact that a solution which would prevent a strike is very, very close?!

It will just cause completely pointless strikes and help no one.

If you made alternative plans for this strike then you can still stick to them if it's easier.

I fail to see what difference the 7 days makes. You've had months to discuss it.

You just move those last minute talks forward seven days, they know the consequences as well as they do for the deadline as is at the moment. There is no difference apart from it being useful to the customer.

 

[455driver]

So once the strike is called it must go ahead!

What happens if during the week between its called and the strike taking place a more sensible offer is made, should they-
A, carry on with the strike and then put it to the membership, causing inconvenience to everyone who wanted to travel that day or
B, postpone the strike and put it to the membership straight away minimising the disruption to hose who couldn't/wouldn't wait to see if a resolution was possible!

Anyone would think this situation was unique to the railways and it had never happened before in any other industry!

 

[sprinterguy]

So you then waste everyone's time and cause needless disruption as the clock turns an exact 7 days away and all talks stop despite the fact that a solution which would prevent a strike is very, very close?!

It will just cause completely pointless strikes and help no one.

The unions and the companies involved would still have exactly the same mount of time to hash out a deal as they would under the current arrangement: Just the discussions have to start a week earlier or, if you will, the strike occurs a week later. It makes no difference in terms of timespan to the negotiation of a better deal. If someone comes up with a clever idea two days after the agreed deadline date it is no different to someone coming up with the same clever idea two days after the strike under the current arrangement.

If you made alternative plans for this strike then you can still stick to them if it's easier.

But it is not easier to have to cancel (if possible, or you can understand the convoluted terms of refund on the wide range of tickets available) existing booked tickets and have to make new arrangements with friends, family or work and determine new travel plans and buy replacement tickets at short notice (rarely cheap) in the first place.

 

[A-driver]

No it's not a secret to the public!



That's the whole point, it doesn't have to be a secret to the public, is this the law stuff people have been going on about but are unwilling to actually stipulate what part of the law they are referring to. Yet expect me to trawl through the whole act out of bloody mindedness?



The publics can know the result of the ballot but have the reassurance of a breathing period where arrangements can be made.

I do expect you to trawl through it all as if you are going to make these suggestions and then get hugely defensive when I point out that they are flawed I think the least I can expect is that you will read up on the subject you claim to know enough about to be so defensive!

You actually told me that you "do know what you are on about 'thank you'" despite clearly not knowing what you were on about and now admitting that not only are you not familiar with the legislation but are unwilling to read through it.

This kind of legislation is hugely complicated and we can't give you a 3minute summary, you need to read the documents which people have gone out of their way to post for you.

Take a break from theory rum to go away and read up on this then once you know a bit about it come back and have this discussion, it will be far easier for everyone.

 

[455driver]

Yes, because then people know full well whether they need to make alternate arrangements or not. None of this "will they, won't they" uncertainty a handful of days before they need to travel.

So you are saying that the hundreds of thousands of people who will now be able to use the train could have made viable alternative arrangements to travel during the strike do you?
Makes me wonder why we need the railways at all if that is possible!

 

[sprinterguy]

A, carry on with the strike and then put it to the membership, causing inconvenience to everyone who wanted to travel that day or

I choose Option A - To all those who have had to change their travel plans prior to yesterdays announcement the inconvenience has already been caused and the damage done.

 

[A-driver]

There is a lot of confusion king on here from people completely clueless about strike laws, negotiations and what actually did happen here and it's actually not possible to explain it all.

The facts of the matter are that the vast majority of the travelling public are please try can now travel by train early next week. There is a tiny minority on here who lack any understanding and seem for some reason upset that the strike has been called off allowing hundreds of thousands to use the train again.

I think a few posters need to have a think here!

 

[bb21]

The unions and the companies involved would still have exactly the same mount of time to hash out a deal as they would under the current arrangement: Just the discussions have to start a week earlier or, if you will, the strike occurs a week later. It makes no difference in terms of timespan to the negotiation of a better deal. If someone comes up with a clever idea two days after the agreed deadline date it is no different to someone coming up with the same clever idea two days after the strike under the current arrangement.

There is a very big difference.

Come up with a solution five days before the strike goes ahead, strike can be called off causing little disruption to those who can be flexible. Those who cannot can stick to the alternative travel plans. These alternative arrangements should be honoured by the train companies.

Come up with a solution two days after the strike goes ahead, no good.

But it is not easier to have to cancel (if possible, or you can understand the convoluted terms of refund on the wide range of tickets available) existing booked tickets and have to make new arrangements with friends, family or work and determine new travel plans and buy replacement tickets at short notice (rarely cheap) in the first place.

Then you can just stick with the alternative travel plans if the strike is cancelled, so you are not losing anything compared to if the strike went ahead.

 

[A-driver]

I choose Option A - To all those who have had to change their travel plans prior to yesterdays announcement the inconvenience has already been caused and the damage done.

But you would be hugely outvoted by the majority of travellers who can now get on with their plans. Very few people will have had to make huge alterations to their plans.

 

[GB]

I fail to see what difference the 7 days makes. You've had months to discuss it.

They have had months to discuss it and did exactly that. But giving the public more time to make plans also allows the company more time to make plans and thus weakens the position of the union/employees.

 

[VauxhallandI]

So you are saying that the hundreds of thousands of people who will now be able to use the train could have made viable alternative arrangements to travel during the strike do you?
Makes me wonder why we need the railways at all if that is possible!

I'm getting a plane and a one and a half hour taxi. It's not a alternative that is particularly great.

 

[sprinterguy]

So you are saying that the hundreds of thousands of people who will now be able to use the train could have made viable alternative arrangements to travel during the strike do you?
Makes me wonder why we need the railways at all if that is possible!

What is possible for one day is not always convenient for a longer period of time - the railways are still essential. At my work we had already discussed and agreed our alternate working arrangements for Tuesday before the end of yesterday, subsequently declared moot so it's business as usual for us, but they would never have been workable for more than a couple of days.