Edinburgh & The Lothians Council Tender Services

[stevenedin]

Ideally the City West Zone should be absorbed by the City Zone and the City Zone boundary in the east moving to after Joppa and it stopping at Fairmilehead, Burdiehouse, Gilmerton & Ferniehill.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Ideally the City West Zone should be absorbed by the City Zone and the City Zone boundary in the east moving to after Joppa and it stopping at Fairmilehead, Burdiehouse, Gilmerton & Ferniehill.

If we were to get into the whole City East or City South zone thing then honestly the whole fare zone will need reviewed, with a potential midlothian zone also into the mix.

The distance between Fairmilehead and Lothianburn wouldn't be much to justify a difference fare zone, much like Joppa to Musselburgh, Queensferry to Barnton is quite a stretch, along with Newbridge to Maybury.

At this point I can see the network getting reworked in 5 years time once Lothian have conquered every corner in Edinburgh and the surrounding regions.

 

[GusB]

This is all getting rather speculative and should be in the appropriate thread. Can we stick with discussing tendered services, please?

 

[VioletEclipse]

I think the issue now though is the 3 or 4 minutes in each direction it will add to the running time. That adds up and the timings on the 32 will be stretched. I’d expect Cramond to be a one way loop to help with this too.

While running up and down The Avenue does add some time, from my experience the main stop in HW campus can be one of the most popular stops between Hermiston Gait and Balerno, so I would think any money penalties from including the stop could be made up with the amount of extra users.

Thankfully the 70/71’s main market is those with the free bus passes, so the pretty healthy fare increase from McGill’s won’t be felt by them. It’s the regular adults that will take the hit, which only make up a minority amongst the users.

After having semi-frequently used the 20 and 63 in the past, I would think that actually folk without free passes will likely make up a signifcant percentage of users of the 70 and 71, and the changes to the routes and fares will probably inconvienience a lot of folk, at least at first. However the new significantly shortened 20 is not a route I imagine being too well used, but I could be completely wrong.

Overall probably an improvement in the long run, but it will cut a number of direct connections which people currently rely on.

 

[stevenedin]

While running up and down The Avenue does add some time, from my experience the main stop in HW campus can be one of the most popular stops between Hermiston Gait and Balerno, so I would think any money penalties from including the stop could be made up with the amount of extra users.

After having semi-frequently used the 20 and 63 in the past, I would think that actually folk without free passes will likely make up a signifcant percentage of users of the 70 and 71, and the changes to the routes and fares will probably inconvienience a lot of folk, at least at first. However the new significantly shortened 20 is not a route I imagine being too well used, but I could be completely wrong.

Overall probably an improvement in the long run, but it will cut a number of direct connections which people currently rely on.

I’m just surprised that they never extended the 20 to Gyle Centre.

 

[iij]

I’m just surprised that they never extended the 20 to Gyle Centre.

The 21 and 400 already cover Gyle - Wester Hailes and probably there is little use for the Kingsknowe - Gyle link.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I’m just surprised that they never extended the 20 to Gyle Centre.

With the budget being so tight the only way it'd work is if Lothian ran this commercially, and I doubt Lothian are able to justify running this.
I do think the 20 route will be very poorly used though, only running 10am to 2:30pm on an hourly basis. Perhaps even a waste of Council money.

My question really is whether the 'vulnerable services' (38, X40, 400) were always going to be supported using this budget, or if they decided last minute to choose the cheapest tender options possible and then use the remaining budget for these routes instead of providing the funding separately? What would be the most realistic tender result if the vulnerable services did not use this budget and there was the extra £800,000 or so available?

 

[Ding Ding]

Cross my palm with silver, and I'll tell you the future. The 70,71,43 will all be £2.00 SINGLE FARE. If I'm wrong, I will never post again.

 

[A330Alex]

I imagine the City West zone makes a significant impact to the financial viability of both South Queensferry and West Lothian to Edinburgh services.

If anything were to change, presumably some fudging of the fare zones could happen to make City West purely include Newbridge on the A8 corridor. That would keep ‘city’ fares on the 70.

e.g

I think the issue now though is the 3 or 4 minutes in each direction it will add to the running time. That adds up and the timings on the 32 will be stretched. I’d expect Cramond to be a one way loop to help with this too.

They had hoped to be able to run via the university to Curriehill. Perhaps Heriot-Watt were able to make the needed changes quickly.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

While running up and down The Avenue does add some time, from my experience the main stop in HW campus can be one of the most popular stops between Hermiston Gait and Balerno, so I would think any money penalties from including the stop could be made up with the amount of extra users.

Agreed, it would be a very missed opportunity to miss out all the students at Heriot-Watt, on top of also serving Napier and Edinburgh College nearby too.

After having semi-frequently used the 20 and 63 in the past, I would think that actually folk without free passes will likely make up a signifcant percentage of users of the 70 and 71, and the changes to the routes and fares will probably inconvienience a lot of folk, at least at first. However the new significantly shortened 20 is not a route I imagine being too well used, but I could be completely wrong.

The problem I have with the 20 is that not only is it only running for about 5 hours each day, but the route is potentially confusing also, whilst it loops around Calder before coming back to Westside Plaza? where does the bus layover? or does it just run non stop back and forth from Chesser?

I know there is the 400 from Wester Hailes and Sighthill has the new 32 and 36, but I feel at the very least they could of maybe brought the 20 down to Hermiston Gait or something, it's not a very inviting route and unless by a surprise it becomes very popular in these areas, I could see it not doing too well.

The 21 and 400 already cover Gyle - Wester Hailes and probably there is little use for the Kingsknowe - Gyle link.

This might just me being unknowledgeable, but is Kingsknowe a busy enough area to justify a bus service? I know it has a rail station to the city.

Cross my palm with silver, and I'll tell you the future. The 70,71,43 will all be £2.00 SINGLE FARE. If I'm wrong, I will never post again.

I wouldn't go that far to never post again.

I imagine the City West zone makes a significant impact to the financial viability of both South Queensferry and West Lothian to Edinburgh services.

If anything were to change, presumably some fudging of the fare zones could happen to make City West purely include Newbridge on the A8 corridor. That would keep ‘city’ fares on the 70.

e.g
View attachment 159501

Pushing this back would also include Dalmahoy in the City Zone, which would effectively make the X27/X28 run direct from City Zone to County West A, not sure how it would effect the 43 however.

Also it would mean from one stop from Ratho Station to Newbridge it would cost £3 rather than £2, I get the irony with this being the issue with Ratho to the Gyle but I feel somehow somewhere, someone will be unhappy about this.

 

[freddiem]

This might just me being unknowledgeable, but is Kingsknowe a busy enough area to justify a bus service? I know it has a rail station to the city.

To be honest, from what i know, busyness isn't massively important for this link, it is more about providing transport to the elderly and infirm to the local supermarkets and other services, a similar story with the Calders. I think the loss of the link to Hermiston Gait and the gyle isn't great but we shall see what comes of it

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

To be honest, from what i know, busyness isn't massively important for this link, it is more about providing transport to the elderly and infirm to the local supermarkets and other services, a similar story with the Calders. I think the loss of the link to Hermiston Gait and the gyle isn't great but we shall see what comes of it

I suspect the councils reasoning for not including Hermiston Gait and the Gyle is it’s close proximity to the Sainsbury’s at Longstone, the Chesser Asda and the Aldi/M&S at Edinburgh West Retail Park.

For that reasoning only, it does work. However, it’s so short now I really do worry about its future. I remember the days of the 20 being a circle and it was never ever busy and ended up being completely withdrawn. What we see now (albeit it was Hermiston Gait to Slateford) came along about a year or so after I think?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2024 ==

The problem I have with the 20 is that not only is it only running for about 5 hours each day, but the route is potentially confusing also, whilst it loops around Calder before coming back to Westside Plaza? where does the bus layover? or does it just run non stop back and forth from Chesser?

I suspect the 20’s western terminus will be in The Calders, likely at the ‘Calder Gardens’ stop at Calder Drive. However, I think this will merely be a 1 or 2 minute dwell with the layover itself being at Chesser. It will probably only have two drivers all day. It wouldn’t surprise me if the bus though is diagrammed into an existing peak extra 36 or 38 either side of its 20 runs. McGill’s do this sort of stuff with their subsidised services in Dundee. School routes at the beginning and end with a daytime only service in the middle. I wouldn’t expect this with the 32 however.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2024 ==

Cross my palm with silver, and I'll tell you the future. The 70,71,43 will all be £2.00 SINGLE FARE. If I'm wrong, I will never post again.

And this will be why.

Lothian have today (Wednesday 5 June) announced changes to fares in west Edinburgh which will see price reductions for many customers from Sunday 30 June.
The change will see the Lothian Country ‘cityWEST’ zone become an extension of the ‘city’ fares zone, with Adult single tickets for Queensferry, Newbridge & Dalmahoy to Edinburgh city centre reduced to £2.00.
Lothian DAYticket, LATEticket, Family DAYticket and countryWEST DAYticket will now also be valid in cityWEST zones.
Download the Lothian Country Network Map & Fares from 30 June 2024

Sarah Boyd, Managing Director for Lothian said: “These changes have only been made possible as a result of successful and sustained customer growth on our Lothian Country network. The implementation of this change will help improve boarding speeds and end to end journey times on our Service 43, where customer numbers have grown over 50% since its launch in 2017.”
The company have also announced new services for west Edinburgh, following a procurement exercise and successful contract awards by City of Edinburgh Council from the same date (Sunday 30 June).

• Service 20 will be operated by Lothian and run Slateford – Kingsknowe – Westside Plaza – The Calders, hourly, Monday to Saturday. Service commences Monday 1 July.
• Service 32 will be operated by Lothian and run Balerno – Currie – HWU – Hermiston P&R – Gyle Centre – Cammo – Cramond, hourly, Monday to Saturday. Service commences Monday 1 July.
• Service 70 will be operated by Lothian Country and run Gyle Centre – Ratho Station – Ratho – Hermiston P&R, hourly, each day. Ratho and Ratho Station are now part of the revised cityWEST fare zone. Service commences Sunday 30 June.
• Service 71 will be operated by Lothian Country and run Queensferry – Kirkliston – Gyle Centre, hourly, each day. Queensferry and Kirkliston are now part of the revised cityWEST fare zone. Service commences Sunday 30 June.

Sarah added: “We recognise the ongoing developments and opportunities in west Edinburgh and are fully committed to maximising the role that the bus network can play in delivering an inclusive and accessible transport solution.”

 

[gavin1985]

With the new route being officially announced, when will the timetables be available?

Lothian announces cheaper fares and new routes for west Edinburgh - Lothian Buses

Lothian have today (Wednesday 5 June) announced changes to fares in west Edinburgh which will see price reductions for many customers from Sunday 30 June. The change will see the Lothian Country ‘cityWEST’ zone become an extension of the ‘city’ fares zone, with Adult single tickets for...

www.lothianbuses.com

 

[Bus9120UK]

With the new route being officially announced, when will the timetables be available?

Lothian announces cheaper fares and new routes for west Edinburgh - Lothian Buses

Lothian have today (Wednesday 5 June) announced changes to fares in west Edinburgh which will see price reductions for many customers from Sunday 30 June. The change will see the Lothian Country ‘cityWEST’ zone become an extension of the ‘city’ fares zone, with Adult single tickets for...

www.lothianbuses.com

Press the hyperlinks in the article.

 

[gavin1985]

Press the hyperlinks in the article.

They weren't hyperlinks when I viewed them. Typical they are now!

 

[cam22]

I wonder if the 43 will become a Lothian bus at some point instead of Lothian Country?

 

[stevenedin]

I wonder if the 43 will become a Lothian bus at some point instead of Lothian Country?

It would make sense for the 43, 70 and 71 to be one Lothian as the routes are within Edinburgh.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I wonder if the 43 will become a Lothian bus at some point instead of Lothian Country?

I think now the CityWest’s purpose is clear and fair, I’m happy with it being an LC route. No issue at all.

 

[CSB0241]

I’m just surprised that they never extended the 20 to Gyle Centre.

The 21 and 400 already cover Gyle - Wester Hailes and probably there is little use for the Kingsknowe - Gyle link.

That’s not all though. They already won’t have a lot of buses free at Longstone (what with the 30/38 hoarding all the Evoras, the 36 hoarding a good chunk of the Volvo 7900Hs, & the few that have been delegated to driver training), so while it would only be one more bus, that could cause a lot of things to go wrong.

I wonder if the 43 will become a Lothian bus at some point instead of Lothian Country?

I wouldn’t be shocked if it, along with the 70/71, did eventually, with the CityWest zone being abolished.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I wouldn’t be shocked if it, along with the 70/71, did eventually, with the CityWest zone being abolished.

Even if they became city routes the cityWest zone wouldn't be removed. There are tickets valid in the cityWest zone that aren't valid in the city zone, and single tickets from West Lothian would all end up being cheaper as the prices are based on the number of zones you cross over on the journey.

I can't see them changing them to city routes though as the 'countryWest' ticket, which now includes the cityWest zone, is specifically only valid on Lothian Country buses, not Lothian city buses.

 

[iij]

This is why I still think the 70 will be split at Ratho in terms of runnings, because realistically why would anyone from The Gyle take the 70 all the way to Hermiston P&R when the new 32 will take you there in a much shorter and direct route.

The 70 from the Gyle to Hermiston P&R takes around as long as (sometimes quicker than) any other bus connection except the 32. Because the 32 is hourly, it is conceivable that someone would use the 70 if they missed it.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Update on the 13, Laidy Nairne and Dumbiedykes tender services -

Development of route options and tender specifications based on community and operator feedback is ongoing. It is estimated that the tenders will be published week beginning 24 June 2024 with potential start date of new services on 1 September 2024. For Service 13, there are no plans to reduce service, but options are being explored that may improve service and provide better value. The Dumbiedykes service will possibly provide a connection to the southside. Councillors in that area have been included in consultation The Lady Nairne service is likely to reintroduce a route similar to the withdrawn service 69 but there is an opportunity to deliver a revised route that may better serve the communities in the area.

The ticket option could prove to be a good incentive for passengers in Ratho, might even encourage higher patronage!

and regarding through ticketing-

Though ticketing options are being considered, this may be difficult to deliver due to cost and administrative burden of new ticketing options. A cost free through ticket may also open an avenue for challenge from other communities. Engagement with the developers of the wave centre, due to open in September, is ongoing. Indications at this stage are that the hourly service from Hermiston Park and Ride will be beneficial to them and they can advertise this to potential customers. Although the current and new service will turn at Hallcroft, there may be an opportunity to extend the service closer to the wave centre in future. There had been a plan to extend the service into the Cala Development at Old Quarry Road but this was dependent on a new footbridge connection being constructed across the Union Canal. This would have provided a convenient access to the Edinburgh International Climbing Arena but is understood to have ceased to be progressed due to technical difficulties. It is understood that some members of the community remain dissatisfied with the new contract route and frequency, but it does provide Ratho with two buses per hour and gives reliable connections to a large number of services in the wider bus network and permitting onward travel in all directions.

Source: Business Bulletin for Transport & Environment Committee on Thursday.

 

[danielhogg2005]

For the Dumbiedykes service, wouldn't a practical idea be to reintroduce the 6 but have it Loop around Dumbiedykes Road to terminate instead of Holyrood?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2024 ==

Update: I looked at the map and realised that Buses can't loop around Dumbiedykes Road (my bad).
Instead it could loop around Pleasance, St. Leonards Street, Dalkeith Road, Holyrood Park Road, Queen's Drive and terminating at Holyrood Road.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

For the Dumbiedykes service, wouldn't a practical idea be to reintroduce the 6 but have it Loop around Dumbiedykes Road to terminate instead of Holyrood?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2024 ==

Update: I looked at the map and realised that Buses can't loop around Dumbiedykes Road (my bad).
Instead it could loop around Pleasance, St. Leonards Street, Dalkeith Road, Holyrood Park Road, Queen's Drive and terminating at Holyrood Road.

Any future Dumbiedykes service will likely just turn at Dynamic Earth.

 

[DunsBus]

For the Dumbiedykes service, wouldn't a practical idea be to reintroduce the 6 but have it Loop around Dumbiedykes Road to terminate instead of Holyrood?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2024 ==

Update: I looked at the map and realised that Buses can't loop around Dumbiedykes Road (my bad).
Instead it could loop around Pleasance, St. Leonards Street, Dalkeith Road, Holyrood Park Road, Queen's Drive and terminating at Holyrood Road.

Dumbiedykes Road was once a through road many years ago, running from Holyrood Road to St Leonard's Hill. It became a dead-end in the early 1970s when the current scheme was built.

Depending on the size of vehicle, Viewcraig Street (the next one along) could be used as an in-and-out. Indeed, it formed part of the route of service 60 when it started in 1973, and was more recently used by the MacTours 60.
I do have a recollection of Dumbiedykes Road being used as a terminus for the 60 in the mid-90s when Jim's Coaches ran it, the minibuses used on the service turning at the dead-end.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Any future Dumbiedykes service will likely just turn at Dynamic Earth.

Dumbiedykes Road was once a through road many years ago, running from Holyrood Road to St Leonard's Hill. It became a dead-end in the early 1970s when the current scheme was built.

Depending on the size of vehicle, Viewcraig Street (the next one along) could be used as an in-and-out. Indeed, it formed part of the route of service 60 when it started in 1973, and was more recently used by the MacTours 60.
I do have a recollection of Dumbiedykes Road being used as a terminus for the 60 in the mid-90s when Jim's Coaches ran it, the minibuses used on the service turning at the dead-end.

I think it would be significantly better for residents if an existing service was rerouted.

If a short, subsidised service was created I would imagine the timetable would be not dissimilar to that of the 20 i.e. one bus running every hour, first bus not until 10am, last bus at 3pm, and nothing at all on Sundays.

Whereas if an existing service was rerouted, for example the 33, they'd have buses every 20 minutes from early morning until late night, seven days a week. It looks like every road in the Dumbiedykes development is a dead end anyway so the closest you could get is down The Pleasance, down Holyrood Road, onto Queen's Drive and then up Canongate and High Street. You could do this easily with the 33 by just continuing on Dalkeith Road until it turns into The Pleasance, go round the above circuit and then turn right back onto North Bridge. That would give direct links to Princes Street, the Royal Infirmary, the leisure facilities at the Commonwealth Pool, Cameron Toll shopping, all of these places.

 

[CSB0241]

Instead it could loop around Pleasance, St. Leonards Street, Dalkeith Road, Holyrood Park Road, Queen's Drive and terminating at Holyrood Road.

Only thing with that is it couldn’t run on weekends, as Duddingston Low Road & Queens Drive (bar the 100 or so yards between Horse Wynd & Holyrood Gait) are closed on weekends between 0815 & 2145.

 

[stevenedin]

I think it would be significantly better for residents if an existing service was rerouted.

If a short, subsidised service was created I would imagine the timetable would be not dissimilar to that of the 20 i.e. one bus running every hour, first bus not until 10am, last bus at 3pm, and nothing at all on Sundays.

Whereas if an existing service was rerouted, for example the 33, they'd have buses every 20 minutes from early morning until late night, seven days a week. It looks like every road in the Dumbiedykes development is a dead end anyway so the closest you could get is down The Pleasance, down Holyrood Road, onto Queen's Drive and then up Canongate and High Street. You could do this easily with the 33 by just continuing on Dalkeith Road until it turns into The Pleasance, go round the above circuit and then turn right back onto North Bridge. That would give direct links to Princes Street, the Royal Infirmary, the leisure facilities at the Commonwealth Pool, Cameron Toll shopping, all of these places.

There is of course the 14 that could do this as well and the 33 could cover West Richmond Street bearing in mind that the 33 is one of the only routes for some parts of Midlothian to Edinburgh City Centre.

The 7 and 49 already cover bridges to Leith Walk direct and the 30 covers from Craigmillar & Prestonfield direct to the city centre so not much would be lost.

 

[DunsBus]

Only thing with that is it couldn’t run on weekends, as Duddingston Low Road & Queens Drive (bar the 100 or so yards between Horse Wynd & Holyrood Gait) are closed on weekends between 0815 & 2145.

In addition to the 60, the 45 ran via Holyrood Road for a number of years pre-deregulation.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Whereas if an existing service was rerouted, for example the 33, they'd have buses every 20 minutes from early morning until late night, seven days a week. It looks like every road in the Dumbiedykes development is a dead end anyway so the closest you could get is down The Pleasance, down Holyrood Road, onto Queen's Drive and then up Canongate and High Street. You could do this easily with the 33 by just continuing on Dalkeith Road until it turns into The Pleasance, go round the above circuit and then turn right back onto North Bridge. That would give direct links to Princes Street, the Royal Infirmary, the leisure facilities at the Commonwealth Pool, Cameron Toll shopping, all of these places.

I really don’t see why we’re considering re-routing established routes like the 33. Some could argue the 35 could be changed accordingly, but it’s still not the best.

The solution to me always was the 13, it’s just the choice of route the council wanted was strange.