Edinburgh - Liverpool

[dcsprior]

Hi, my fiancée's parents are hoping to go to Liverpool from Edinburgh, on a date to be confirmed in August (probably southbound on a Wed or Thu, returning on a Sunday) and have asked for my help as I travel regularly by train....

...However I've no experience of booking for this route, or any of the train companies involved. I've had a quick look at fares for the last week currently available (w/c 21st July) to get some idea of journeys/fares, and based on this I have some questions:

They want to travel 1st class, as its a special occasion. I therefore don't think they'd be happy connecting onto a Northern Trains service where seats can't be reserved and they could therefore end up standing for ~50 minutes. However every itinerary I'm offered on the EC website includes a trip on such a service. Is there something I can put in as a 'Via' or 'Avoid' point to ensure the whole journey is on trains with reservable seating. Two things that'd be a bonus are: if the main part of the journey is on Virgin rather than EC & if the connecting journey has 1st Class

Is the general advice for this route to book as soon advances become available? Anything to watch out for or any other specific tips? Note that they'll want things simple, so won't have any appetite for tickets that whilst valid will involve difficult conversations with staff.

Neither have railcards at present. Neither of them have been on a train for years, so would only be interested in buying one if it paid for itself with this trip alone. Both are 59 now, one will be 60 by the date of travel; at this point they're unsure of times so don't know if it'll be after the 09:30 cutoff for the two-together railcard.

 

[matthewluck]

I think Crewe is the first station you can change onto a VT service towards Liverpool on that route, but I may be wrong.

 

[fowler9]

I think Crewe is the first station you can change onto a VT service towards Liverpool on that route, but I may be wrong.

I am pretty sure hardly any Virgin services from and to Liverpool stop at Crewe to be honest off the top of my head. I mean next to none.

 

[Merseysider]

Travelling via Manchester on First Advances means you can reserve seats on FTPE services throughout and should work out to about £70 each way (looking at end of July fares). However, if the return is on a Sunday, services will be few and far between so check carefully.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, a Two Together railcard may be worth looking at.

 

[sonic2009]

I am pretty sure hardly any Virgin services from and to Liverpool stop at Crewe to be honest off the top of my head. I mean next to none.

There's a regular service throughout the day from Crewe to Liverpool with VT, from 1043 onwards and xx43 every hour Mon-Fri with few peak time services around 1900.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You can obtain 1st Class Advance tickets via Manchester Piccadilly, but this journey is mostly on First Transpennine Express whose 1st Class offering is a lot less substantial than Virgin.

 

[dcsprior]

Hmm... I'd actually tried putting Crewe in as a via point before posting. If I search on the EC website for EDB-LIV one-way on 23 Jul, departing after 10am, for 2 adults without railcards I get no results.

The NRE website (and the EC one if I choose "Timetables only") does give me results for this search - mostly on a combination of Virgin/LM, some on Virgin/Virgin

I'd been looking at the EC website as I always go there by default, and indeed I'd planned to buy on the EC website on their behalf, and pass the cost on to them at about 70p in the pound (based on my rough calculation of what an EC reward point is worth to me - as I've said they're not regular rail travellers themselves, so points would be of no use to them)

 

[Hadders]

I think you'll need two tickets if going via Crewe but it shouldn't be prohibitively expensive as the VT only 1st class Single is only £12.60 (there isn't a return) and you should be able to get a reasonable advance fare from Edinburgh to Crewe if you book early enough.

The Virgin service from Edinburgh to Crewe generally arrives around xx00 so there is a 43 minute wait for the Crewe to Liverpool train.

I suggest that this is an ideal connection time for people unused to the railway. If my parents are anything to go by they would fret about a train running a few minutes late causing them to miss their connection.

I once suggested a 20 minute connection at Birmingham New Street for a journey they were making but they said it was far too tight!!!

If they're going 1st class they can enjoy the 1st class lounge.

 

[dcsprior]

I think you'll need two tickets if going via Crewe but it shouldn't be prohibitively expensive as the VT only 1st class Single is only £12.60 (there isn't a return) and you should be able to get a reasonable advance fare from Edinburgh to Crewe if you book early enough.

The Virgin service from Edinburgh to Crewe generally arrives around xx00 so there is a 43 minute wait for the Crewe to Liverpool train.

I suggest that this is an ideal connection time for people unused to the railway. If my parents are anything to go by they would fret about a train running a few minutes late causing them to miss their connection.

I once suggested a 20 minute connection at Birmingham New Street for a journey they were making but they said it was far too tight!!!

If they're going 1st class they can enjoy the 1st class lounge.

Thanks, I hadn't considered it would need two tickets.

Yeah, I'd agree that they'd probably like a longish connection time on the northbound where their second train is a restricted ticket (regardless of any entitlement to travel on a different train in the case of delays) but for the southbound they'd probably rather have the option of getting an earlier train if they're in plenty of time - so the Any Permitted Anytime Return (£33.60) may be better value.

At today's prices this would come to £164:

Edinburgh-Crewe: £55 1st advance
Crewe-Edinburgh: £55 1st advance
Crewe-Liverpool: £33.60 Anytime 1st Return (any permitted)
Total per person= £143.60
Total for two people= £287.20
After Railcard discount= £191.47
*70p/pound= £134.03 the reward points from spending £1 will save me ~£0.30 on travel (based on buying 1st class tickets @ 1400 points for 4, and redeeming them when I'd otherwise have to have spent £70)
Two Together Railcard: £30
Grand total= £164.03


which I think they'll be very happy with!

 

[boyaloud]

You could also fly Edinburgh to Manchester and then train 1st class Man airport to Liverpool? Or fly to Liverpool if that's possible? Just a suggestion! Possibly about same price.
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Don't think you can go from Ed to Liverpool but Ed to Manchester from 14-17 aug can be done for £64.50 return each on FlyBe.

 

[fowler9]

There's a regular service throughout the day from Crewe to Liverpool with VT, from 1043 onwards and xx43 every hour Mon-Fri with few peak time services around 1900.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You can obtain 1st Class Advance tickets via Manchester Piccadilly, but this journey is mostly on First Transpennine Express whose 1st Class offering is a lot less substantial than Virgin.

Apologies for my dud info.

 

[Adam0984]

Just a thought and don't know any prices at the moment but what about
Edinburgh to Warrington BQ
taxi WBQ to Warrington Ctl
TPE/EMT Warrington Ctl to Liverpool LS

 

[hairyhandedfool]

EMT don't have first class on that route.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just a thought and don't know any prices at the moment but what about
Edinburgh to Warrington BQ
taxi WBQ to Warrington Ctl
TPE/EMT Warrington Ctl to Liverpool LS

I don't think that's a very good option, having to wait at Warrington Central for the one hourly TPE service with 1st class.

There's nothing wrong with the direct route, changing from Edinburgh-Euston into the Blackpool-Liverpool at Preston (or Wigan as it's same-platform).
eg EDB 1051 WGN 1328/1350 LIV arr 1427 £71.50 first advance single on some dates.
Return on the Sunday: LIV 1047 WGN 1130/1138 EDB arr 1319 - £56.50 on some dates.
The Liverpool-Wigan section (of the through Blackpool service) is only half an hour in a decent Northern 156, 2 stops, but it can be busy. Same platform at Wigan. No first class though.
Changing at Preston involves hiking over bridges but there is also a ramped subway.

You CAN go via Crewe on one ticket and use VT or LM to reach Liverpool, both with first class.
Same train from EDB, CRE 1357/1432, LIV 1510 on LM £56.50 first advance single some dates.
Same train into EDB on Sunday, LIV dep 0938 on VT, CRE 1012/1109. £55.
You can see you lose the best part of an hour going via Crewe.
Changing at Crewe means steps or lift but you should have plenty of time.

All these from the VT web site, dates in July (advances for August not available yet).
Edinburgh-Wigan-Crewe might be a Voyager or Pendolino.
First class won't get you hot meals I don't think (only on Euston-Glasgow direct trains) but there will be free tea and biscuits at least.

 

[kieron]

I think you'll need two tickets if going via Crewe

You don't. The route in question is shown on CG+CV, and travelling through Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford twice is sanctioned by easement 700231 (no least because no trains from Warrington stop between there and Crewe). In addition, NRE is happy with the route.

 

[Hadders]

Apologies, I should have checked more thoroughly. I put in via Crewe into East Coast's website and it said no fares were available so assumed it wasn't permitted.

 

[tony_mac]

There is a first-class off-peak return at £150 which isn't too much more expensive and gives flexibility.

Travelling via Wigan is the obvious route, but it is 35-50 minutes on what could be a pacer. It's not such a problem during the week, but on a (hot) summer Sunday this could be packed and quite unpleasant.

An extra 45 minutes to travel via Crewe isn't as bad as I was expecting, and does seem like the most comfortable option.
However, don't expect any first-class service between Crewe and Liverpool, they usually stop before Stafford.

The other realistic (but not quicker) options are via Manchester and York; both involving Transpennine for at least a significant portion. The Transpennine first-class seats are quite nice, but the compartment is small, and often not terribly peaceful.
The Sunday catering service on EastCoast will be better than Virgin, if that makes a difference - but the 1st class off-peak return won't be valid via York.

 

[eastend43]

There's nothing wrong with the direct route, changing from Edinburgh-Euston into the Blackpool-Liverpool at Preston (or Wigan as it's same-platform).
eg EDB 0851 WGN 1328/1350 LIV arr 1427 £71.50 first advance single on some dates.
Return on the Sunday: LIV 1047 WGN 1130/1138 EDB arr 1319 - £56.50 on some dates.
The Liverpool-Wigan section (of the through Blackpool service) is only half an hour in a decent Northern 156, 2 stops, but it can be busy. Same platform at Wigan. No first class though.

Sorry, I would disagree - I travel that route quite a lot and the Wigan / Liverpool section can be quite 'interesting' and for people not used to rail travel, quite daunting. My mum (about 10 years old than those who are travelling) only does it if I meet her in Wigan or take her there on her way back to Edinburgh, and the last 2 times she did it we missed the connection there which seems to stress her. My sister and family did it last summer and connected onto a packed train bringing lots of Merseyside day trippers back from Blackpool which she found a bit scary (sorry if that makes it sound like she's a snob). Finally the last two times I've come back that way myself there's been delays of over an hour, with Northern again seeming to take great delight at the Wigan to Liverpool service leaving just at the same time as the slightly delayed Edinburgh train gets in. Once when meeting my mum at Wigan to change onto the Liverpool train, those coming out of Standard Class could run for the connection and they got it, but those in First Class had no chance.

To be fair, the service from Wigan to Liverpool is OK, but can be a bit of a shock if you are not used to local trains or if you've come straight out of First Class.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sorry, I would disagree - I travel that route quite a lot and the Wigan / Liverpool section can be quite 'interesting' and for people not used to rail travel, quite daunting. My mum (about 10 years old than those who are travelling) only does it if I meet her in Wigan or take her there on her way back to Edinburgh, and the last 2 times she did it we missed the connection there which seems to stress her. My sister and family did it last summer and connected onto a packed train bringing lots of Merseyside day trippers back from Blackpool which she found a bit scary (sorry if that makes it sound like she's a snob). Finally the last two times I've come back that way myself there's been delays of over an hour, with Northern again seeming to take great delight at the Wigan to Liverpool service leaving just at the same time as the slightly delayed Edinburgh train gets in. Once when meeting my mum at Wigan to change onto the Liverpool train, those coming out of Standard Class could run for the connection and they got it, but those in First Class had no chance.

To be fair, the service from Wigan to Liverpool is OK, but can be a bit of a shock if you are not used to local trains or if you've come straight out of First Class.

You are right if you are talking about the Wigan-Liverpool stoppers.
But the Blackpool-Liverpool semi-fast is nearly always a 156.
There are indeed crowds at times, but it's usually groups of Scots in strange surroundings that make it scary...
Sundays are another kettle of fish, as the NT Wigan/Blackpool services are merged into one hourly stopping service.
The Crewe option is pretty good though.

Whichever WCML route is taken there is also the dislocation of the Watford blockades on certain weekends in August to worry about (Sun 10/17/24 Aug, no timetables yet).

 

[dcsprior]

Thanks everyone for the advice

There is a first-class off-peak return at £150 which isn't too much more expensive and gives flexibility.

Thanks. I'll probably recommend to them that they buy advances if they're significantly cheaper on the day when they come out than they were yesterday (which I'm guessing was 5 days after they came out) otherwise go for the £150 option.

If it does end being the off-peak return, I'd still like to buy from the EC website to get reward points (which I'll pass on to them as a "discount"). As it won't offer any fares changing at Crewe, should I just buy the ticket without reservations, then pop in to Edinburgh Waverley?

However, don't expect any first-class service between Crewe and Liverpool, they usually stop before Stafford.

A reserved seat will be a must, if its in first its a bonus. Tea/Coffee/etc I don't think they'll be bothered about for this leg

 

[jkdd77]

It may well be cheaper to buy a standard advance single with £15 Virgin weekend first upgrade for the return leg on a Sunday (I understand that Virgin, unlike XC, do permit weekend first upgrades with advance tickets).

If travelling via Crewe, first class singles between Crewe and Liverpool are half the price of the respective returns, so it may also be possible to, for example, buy a Crewe- Liverpool FDS rte 'Any Permitted' for the outward leg, and a FDS rte 'Virgin Trains only' for the return leg, depending on connections and timings on the day. This would represent a small saving on the £33.60 FOR.

It also raises the question of whether it might be possible to buy a single Virgin weekend first upgrade to cover both tickets; if so, and if indeed travelling on Virgin on the Crewe- Liverpool leg, a SDS rte 'Virgin Trains only' is £9.70.

 

[Gathursty]

On the way down to Liverpool, you can avoid us Wiganers by going via Ormskirk, or put up with us and avoid St Helens (everytime :P) by going via Kirkby. Then again, it's Kirkby! I'd stick with via Ormskirk but get your timings right.

 

[reb0118]

On the way down to Liverpool, you can avoid us Wiganers by going via Ormskirk...........

I believe this was once one of the traditional routes from Scotland to Liverpool. Before the downgrading of the line there were direct Anglo - Scottish express services from Liverpool Exchange (some joined up at Preston with a portion from Manchester to split again at Carstairs to both Edinburgh & Glasgow).

I use this route myself when I fancy a change to the Wigan, Warrington, or Crewe connection. I have never found it overcrowded or in any way scary.

This would be an interesting route for your future in-laws and would provide a great contrast to 1st class in Virgin. There is a very easy same platform interchange at Ormskirk (A nice wee town) and four (?) trains an hour from there to Liverpool Central. A swift half at the Midland Hotel across the road & Bob's your uncle.

Sorted. (No service on a Sunday though!)

 

[fowler9]

I believe this was once one of the traditional routes from Scotland to Liverpool. Before the downgrading of the line there were direct Anglo - Scottish express services from Liverpool Exchange (some joined up at Preston with a portion from Manchester to split again at Carstairs to both Edinburgh & Glasgow).

I use this route myself when I fancy a change to the Wigan, Warrington, or Crewe connection. I have never found it overcrowded or in any way scary.

This would be an interesting route for your future in-laws and would provide a great contrast to 1st class in Virgin. There is a very easy same platform interchange at Ormskirk (A nice wee town) and four (?) trains an hour from there to Liverpool Central. A swift half at the Midland Hotel across the road & Bob's your uncle.

Sorted. (No service on a Sunday though!)

If the future in laws like first class rail travel and a similar standard in bars and pubs then the Midland would certainly provide a contrast.