Edinburgh Gateway - A White Elephant ?

[najaB]

Of course whatever an airport operator may say in public, I suspect most have little interest in significant mode shift to rail for surface access as they make so much from parking, especially shorter term business oriented provision.

Pedantic, I know, but in the case of Edinburgh airport (and many others) they make money by renting/leasing out land to car park operators. Most of the car parking at Edinburgh is run by third-parties.

If there was a huge modal shift away from driving, I'm sure the airport would be just as happy to rent/lease the land to someone else for another purpose.

 

[QueensCurve]

Edinburgh - Glasgow services could use it if the Dalmeny Chord was built.

Is there any prospect that the chord might in fact be built in the foreseeable future?

 

[QueensCurve]

Which line would you put the spur onto, and what direction would it face?

The Fife line. So as to allow a service from Waverly/Haymarket.

Presumably it would only require a single-lead junction embankment and single tract + modifications to the signalling.

 

[EISL]

A heavy rail spur was considered as an option for EARL originally. It was rejected in favour of the tunnel..........

The original report looking at a range of options for both Glasgow and Edinburgh airports is here:

https://www.eisl.org.uk/download/SKMFinalReport.pdf

Pages 10 and 11 have diagrams of the options including two spur options (EA5 and EA7)

And if you really can't sleep one night, try reading the transcript about the report from the Scottish Parliament in 2006:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2006-09-21.27806.0

It includes the surprisingly prescient comment from Stewart Stevenson:

Is the minister aware that runway 30/12 is little used and that the long-term plans are that it be sold and at least half the land sold off for commercial purposes? Is he aware of the key opportunity that that provides to create a terminal-based link to the rail network without the substantial cost of a tunnel? Should we not seriously consider that as a key option?

 

[najaB]

The Fife line. So as to allow a service from Waverly/Haymarket.

So of no use whatsoever to people travelling from the north who still have to travel to Haymarket (and might as well get the frequent bus or tram), nor to people travelling from the west who can continue to alight at Edinburgh Park for the tram.

And if I'm travelling from the east, am I more likely to get the 1tph train or the 6tph tram?

 

[Altnabreac]

The Fife line. So as to allow a service from Waverly/Haymarket.

Presumably it would only require a single-lead junction embankment and single tract + modifications to the signalling.

So you're going to use non existent paths into Waverley to run a service of no use to anyone outside Edinburgh that makes reliability worse on Fife, Inverness and Aberdeen services, prevents faster Glasgow services in the long term, destroys the future profitability of the Edinburgh Tram network and stops High Speed Rail Scotland from ever getting off the ground.

And the benefit is a 10 minute journey time reduction on Edinburgh - Airport journeys.

Sounds like a winning business case to me...

 

[Failed Unit]

So you're going to use non existent paths into Waverley to run a service of no use to anyone outside Edinburgh that makes reliability worse on Fife, Inverness and Aberdeen services, prevents faster Glasgow services in the long term, destroys the future profitability of the Edinburgh Tram network and stops High Speed Rail Scotland from ever getting off the ground.

And the benefit is a 10 minute journey time reduction on Edinburgh - Airport journeys.

Sounds like a winning business case to me...

Scottish government will approve it tomorrow when you put it like that.

 

[dcsprior]

Pedantic, I know, but in the case of Edinburgh airport (and many others) they make money by renting/leasing out land to car park operators. Most of the car parking at Edinburgh is run by third-parties.

If there was a huge modal shift away from driving, I'm sure the airport would be just as happy to rent/lease the land to someone else for another purpose.

I think the 4 car parks closest to the terminal are all run directly by the airport (Terminal Multistorey, Terminal Surface, Mid Stay, Long Stay).

Also, the value the market would support for the cost of the lease on the land for the rest of them would presumably drop if there wasn't the market for car parking.

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

 

[najaB]

I think the 4 car parks closest to the terminal are all run directly by the airport (Terminal Multistorey, Terminal Surface, Mid Stay, Long Stay).

Which is why I said 'most' - I believe that the number of spaces operated by NCP and the like is higher than those directly operated by the airport.

Also, the value the market would support for the cost of the lease on the land for the rest of them would presumably drop if there wasn't the market for car parking.

Quite possible that income would drop, but since it's money for old rope I don't think it would hurt the airport that much in the long run.

 

[lewisdicks]

Did the frequency reduction have much impact. When I used it the frequency between trains was something like.

Train -> 5 mins -> Train -> 25 mins - Train and repeat.

Going to 2 per hour is about every 30 mins now so longest wait isn't much worse?

It's not so much a problem during the day it's when it goes past 7pm and it drops to one per hour, with it making it harder to make connection to/from Glasgow

 

[Stopper]

Saw this place today for the second time and it was absolutely dead (again). Can’t believe it’s keeping it’s Inverness calls, it just slows the train down for no apparent reason.

How is the actual usage compared to what was initially expected?

 

[DuncanS]

ORR figures are out tomorrow, we shall see what they say.

Prediction - Scotrail/ScotGov claim massive success, whilst the actuality is the figures will be poor for it supposedly being the airport link station.

 

[Bald Rick]

ORR figures are out tomorrow, we shall see what they say.

Prediction - Scotrail/ScotGov claim massive success, whilst the actuality is the figures will be poor for it supposedly being the airport link station.

Sweepstake!

 

[DuncanS]

ORR out and for Edinburgh named stations,
Entries & Exits_Full -- Entries & Exits_Reduced -- Entries & Exits_Season
5,270,712 -- 13,345,424 -- 3,966,206 - - Waverley
25,904 -- 12,234 -- 20,248 -- Edinburgh Gateway
368,062 -- 234,688 -- 267,228 -- Edinburgh Park

So that's 58386 trips in 2016-17 (or at least the 4 months the station was open) with 2139 interchanges.

Treble that for a full year and then add on some additional journies around people going on their summer holidays and we are still looking at less than 200,000 uses per year.

 

[Altnabreac]

That broadly fits with the 200,000 per year estimated in August:
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....tracts-third-of-expected-passengers-1-4543692

So its well behind the 500,000 per year in the business case but my no means completely unused. Development in that area, better Airport through ticketing and the Dalmeny Chord are all needed to ensure the station fully comes into its own but it is certainly a necessary part of the development of West Edinburgh so not what I would call a White Elephant personally.

If we criticise government and transport planners for putting in place good quality, future proofed, high capacity, public transport links in advance of major development then really we are endorsing the alternative which is to allow development to go ahead with no public transport designed in or inadequate short sighted designs and allow an unsustainable situation to be created that costs more to be fixed later.

 

[route:oxford]

Development in that area, better Airport through ticketing and the Dalmeny Chord are all needed to ensure the station fully comes into its own but it is certainly a necessary part of the development of West Edinburgh so not what I would call a White Elephant personally.

How is this doing? My experiece is that it is very hit and miss trying to buy a through ticket, indeed I've just checked the Scotrail website for a Bridge of Allan (BEA) to Edinburgh Airport (EDA) and it returns the standard two single fares to Edinburgh with a vague "transfer".

Which, to be honest, is worth doing as the ticket machine will spit out a ticket to Haymarket and upon complaint Scotrail will issue a £5 apology and mumble about computer issue.

 

[Class 170101]

Saw this place today for the second time and it was absolutely dead (again). Can’t believe it’s keeping it’s Inverness calls, it just slows the train down for no apparent reason.

Given the Inverness times are reasonably slack to fit in with the standard hour services from Edinburgh Dundee and Aberdeen and the single line sections between Ladybank and Inverness I doubt the extra call made much difference if any to journey times.

 

[Stopper]

Given the Inverness times are reasonably slack to fit in with the standard hour services from Edinburgh Dundee and Aberdeen and the single line sections between Ladybank and Inverness I doubt the extra call made much difference if any to journey times.

That’s not really the point. Inverness services stop too much before Perth as it is, certainly compared to the Aberdeen services before Dundee. So it’s just a bit of an annoyance to have another extra call in there, I’ve always wished they would run fast to Perth.

But I guess they act as an extension to the Perth services, unlike the Aberdeen fasts which have Dundee semi-fasts to sweep up the Fife calls.

 

[route:oxford]

That’s not really the point. Inverness services stop too much before Perth as it is, certainly compared to the Aberdeen services before Dundee. So it’s just a bit of an annoyance to have another extra call in there, I’ve always wished they would run fast to Perth.

It would be infuriating for airport users to tear straight past the Edinburgh Gateway station and have to get back on a tram or train to get back to where they were 30 minutes earlier. Might as well drive it.

Don't forget that Edinburgh Gateway also serves The Gyle Shopping Centre and Gyle business Park. There is a designated footpath direct between the two.

Although, something has just caught my eye.

A day return from Perth to Edinburgh Gateway costs £15.60 and is valid via Haymarket.

An annual season ticket (any valid route etc) from Perth to Edinburgh Gateway costs £500 less than a Perth to "Edinburgh" ticket. If a season ticket follows the same routing acceptability as a standard day return - isn't that a bit of an anomaly?

 

[Stopper]

There are already opportunities for the North & Fife travellers to get to Gateway without the Inverness service. Considering nobody ever seems to get on or off there on the Inverness train, I don’t think the stop is that necessary anyway. I appreciate the Inverness service isn’t as frequent as the Aberdeen one, but as a fairly regular traveller on that service it’s quite annoying to see that service run fast up to Leuchars whereas the Inverness one picks up calls at Gateway and Fife, which should be left for Fife Circle, Perth, Dundee services.

 

[47271]

There are already opportunities for the North & Fife travellers to get to Gateway without the Inverness service. Considering nobody ever seems to get on or off there on the Inverness train, I don’t think the stop is that necessary anyway. I appreciate the Inverness service isn’t as frequent as the Aberdeen one, but as a fairly regular traveller on that service it’s quite annoying to see that service run fast up to Leuchars whereas the Inverness one picks up calls at Gateway and Fife, which should be left for Fife Circle, Perth, Dundee services.

If the Inverness trains didn't make those stops then there would be a gap in the hourly Edinburgh-Perth calls. And let's face it, Edinburgh-Perth average speeds are so slow anyway that stopping at Gateway makes precious little difference anyway.

I don't have so much of a problem with the Inverness trains stopping, I travel from the Highlands to Edinburgh Airport myself every couple of months, it's the hopeless promotion and ticketing of the station that annoys me. If you ask most people in Fife and the north and east of Scotland how they'd get to Edinburgh Airport by public transport I bet 98% wouldn't have a clue that there's an easy rail and tram option.

 

[Stopper]

That probably is the case then, and i’m actually shocked it has made the reported 200,000 approx passengers a year as I’ve travelled through it in peak time before and it was still dead. I wonder how many people get off on Fife Circle services.

The hour gap in the timetable argument doesn’t really work when you consider that Inverkeithing is mostly omitted from the Inverness service, and Kirkcaldy and Ladybank aren’t always called at either. It just seems like they’ve demanded as many trains stop there as possible, and hoped it would work.

 

[railjock]

That broadly fits with the 200,000 per year estimated in August:
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....tracts-third-of-expected-passengers-1-4543692

So its well behind the 500,000 per year in the business case but my no means completely unused. Development in that area, better Airport through ticketing and the Dalmeny Chord are all needed to ensure the station fully comes into its own but it is certainly a necessary part of the development of West Edinburgh so not what I would call a White Elephant personally.

If we criticise government and transport planners for putting in place good quality, future proofed, high capacity, public transport links in advance of major development then really we are endorsing the alternative which is to allow development to go ahead with no public transport designed in or inadequate short sighted designs and allow an unsustainable situation to be created that costs more to be fixed later.

Indeed, Shawfair is another example of a station built in anticipation of future development.

 

[gsnedders]

That probably is the case then, and i’m actually shocked it has made the reported 200,000 approx passengers a year as I’ve travelled through it in peak time before and it was still dead. I wonder how many people get off on Fife Circle services.

Especially when much of the people around the Fife Circle have good bus links to the airport (mostly changing at Ferrytoll).

 

[Stopper]

http://www.tactran.gov.uk/documents/4GSSPHMLProjectandTimetableDev.pdf

Interesting to see that according to TacTran, which shows the top 10 destinations for each Perth-Inverness HML station, Edinburgh Gateway features in only one of the top 10, Dalwhinnie (56 a year).

I understand that Inverness & Perth may have quite a few journeys that we’re unable to see, but this only backs up my point earlier that Gateway is almost unused by the HML trains and is currently a wasted stop on the Inverness trains. Scotrail need to advertise this station and it’s tram-train ticketing far more, it’s very strange to see such a brand new station with a big concourse always almost deserted.

 

[railjock]

Now that the second runway at Edinburgh Airport has been closed to be ‘redeveloped’ was it a missed opportunity to open a staion near the original Turnhouse site with a short connection across the old runway straight to the terminal as opposed to having built Edinburgh Gateway?

 

[InOban]

Absolutely. And the airport should make a major contribution to the cost.

 

[NotATrainspott]

A station at Turnhouse wouldn't be any more useful. It would still require a shuttle transfer to the airport terminal (which would cost money to build) while it would no longer be near the centre of a development area.

 

[najaB]

Now that the second runway at Edinburgh Airport has been closed to be ‘redeveloped’ was it a missed opportunity to open a staion near the original Turnhouse site with a short connection across the old runway straight to the terminal as opposed to having built Edinburgh Gateway?

If they wanted a station in three or four years time, then maybe.

 

[overthewater]

The only reason it busy is because it force people who would have gotten off at South Gyle to get off her to get to their work. It's a joke.