Edinburgh electrification

[sprinterguy]

Hmmm, that seems an interesting way to go about connecting Shawfair with public transport. Shawfair station is also shown on the Borders’ Railway route map, so obviously something is going to happen along those lines. For a heavy rail service, the stations seem remarkably close together, with Newcraighall, Shawfair and Eskbank in quick succession: The train won’t be able to get above 20mph before it’s braking for the next stop! Not expecting any quick journey times from Galashiels on the train then. Seems a bit odd building a brand new spur when the existing trackbed is perfectly useable just a short distance away.

 

[tbtc]

As successful as Sheffield’s trams? What, you mean it’ll go belly up within five years of opening due to it being unable to recoup its’ costs, and be sold off at a major loss to a private operator?

Yeah, the Sheffield system got off to a bad reputation, mainly because (1) it was all brand new (unlike Manchester, built just earlier, which inherited the railway demand from Bury/ Altrincham), and because the early years were spent competing with buses.

Hopefully the Edinburgh system will avoid any wasteful bus competition, due to Lothian Buses being part of the same organisation (in the same way that the Nottingham tram has benefitted from NCT co-operating rather than competing). Now Stagecoach run a lot of buses in Sheffield too, and passengers are able to interchange tickets, which has improved greatly.

Sheffield didn't really know what it was doing when it built the tram (just look at the initial ticketing system!), and I'd hoped Edinburgh would have learnt some lessons from us. Sadly, one of the main lessons ("don't try and build everything all at once, start off with one section and then extend and extend over the next year or two") has been ignored.

If Edinburgh had been organised, they'd have started off with an Airport - Edinburgh Park tram within a short space of time. You have a tram linking the Airport, a big shopping area and office park (the Gyle) and a train station.

Then, over the months extend it to Haymarket, so there are better links to the city centre, and it serves more of the suburbs.

Then, extend it through the city centre, and slowly down Leith Walk. All of the time, the tram is earning (some) revenue, staff are trained on it for the next "opening", any initial problems are "ironed out", lessons learnt.

Instead, Edinburgh have tried to build everything all at once, meaning ten miles of traffic disruption from one end of the route to the other, meaning the locals are against it before it's even started running.

Eventually people will take to it, they generally have in each other tram scheme, but they've lost a *lot* of goodwill in Edinburgh, so it will take time to recover this.

 

[djw1981]

If Edinburgh had been organised, they'd have started off with an Airport - Edinburgh Park tram within a short space of time. You have a tram linking the Airport, a big shopping area and office park (the Gyle) and a train station.

Then, over the months extend it to Haymarket, so there are better links to the city centre, and it serves more of the suburbs.

Then, extend it through the city centre, and slowly down Leith Walk. All of the time, the tram is earning (some) revenue, staff are trained on it for the next "opening", any initial problems are "ironed out", lessons learnt.

The tram builders wanted this, but the public opinion was won, and planning permission gained, by promising better access from North edinburgh/Leith into the Central area. the issue with an airport only line was that it would primarily benefit Edinburgh Park / South Gyle and Airport, the Leith/Newhaven line first should allow the further 'regeneration' of Leith/newhaven.

The Edinburgh network is being laid in stages. newhaven back to haymarket (via Western general hospital) is being built later, along with the Newbridge extension, and line 3.

 

[tbtc]

The tram builders wanted this, but the public opinion was won, and planning permission gained, by promising better access from North edinburgh/Leith into the Central area. the issue with an airport only line was that it would primarily benefit Edinburgh Park / South Gyle and Airport, the Leith/Newhaven line first should allow the further 'regeneration' of Leith/newhaven.

The Edinburgh network is being laid in stages. newhaven back to haymarket (via Western general hospital) is being built later, along with the Newbridge extension, and line 3.

Yeah, it's a shame they've been digging up Leith for a long time before the trams will arrive.

If they had *blitzed* one stretch at a time then something would be up and running by now, and the public would be "on side"

 

[90019]

Hopefully the Edinburgh system will avoid any wasteful bus competition, due to Lothian Buses being part of the same organisation.

The tram will be competing with various buses over parts of the route, but there are two main ones;
Between Ocean terminal and Princes Street (and also indirectly between there and the Gyle) it will be competing with the 22, which runs every 2 minutes at peak times.
Between Princes Street and the Airport, it's competing mainly with the 100 which is the express bus to the airport.

From Princes Street to the park and ride at Ingliston, it also competes with the 48 and X48.
Over the whole route from Leith to the Airport, it kind of competes indirectly with the 35, though not so much as the 35 is a somewhat roundabout route.

 

[PaulLothian]

The tram will be competing with various buses over parts of the route, but there are two main ones;
Between Ocean terminal and Princes Street (and also indirectly between there and the Gyle) it will be competing with the 22, which runs every 2 minutes at peak times.

As I recall, the intention is that bus services should be restructured to feed into tram lines, or to cover areas the tram did not enter. The 22 was introduced (I believe) to cover the route that the trams would in due course take over, given the heavy traffic flows that have developed along that corridor from new developments in west and north Edinburgh.

 

[djw1981]

Indeed the idea of one company operating both systems is to increase complementarity between the systems and reduce competiton. So one ticket to do a hourney which may be bus tram bus with fast interchange times etc. thus reducing the number of bus routes (and hence buses) entering the city centre.

 

[route101]

im doing the 2048 xc from glasgow central to waverley this evening . Lets see how well loaded it is .

 

[tbtc]

The tram will be competing with various buses over parts of the route, but there are two main ones;
Between Ocean terminal and Princes Street (and also indirectly between there and the Gyle) it will be competing with the 22, which runs every 2 minutes at peak times.
Between Princes Street and the Airport, it's competing mainly with the 100 which is the express bus to the airport.

From Princes Street to the park and ride at Ingliston, it also competes with the 48 and X48.
Over the whole route from Leith to the Airport, it kind of competes indirectly with the 35, though not so much as the 35 is a somewhat roundabout route.

I think the plan was for the 100 to drop down to every fifteen minutes, and the 22 to every seven or ten minutes (I've seen a few versions of the plans).

By not getting into a fares war with the buses, the tram will be able to build a stable market.

There's room for both buses and trams, in the way that there is room for trains and buses/trams. By having one ticket available on both, the tram should work well (in the way that the tram in Croydon doesn't compete with buses, but works with them)...

 

[90019]

im doing the 2048 xc from glasgow central to waverley this evening . Lets see how well loaded it is .

I was on it recently and there were about 14 people in total on it.

 

[rail-britain]

I've just been looking for locations for stations :
Niddrie Mill / Niddrie Mains - Duddingston Park South (A6106)
Cameron Toll
Blackford / Blackford Avenue
Morningside / Comiston Road
Colinton Road

However, there would be some serious issues with station access and car parking in these locations
Ironically, similar such stations on the Cathcart Circle have limited access and most have no car parking
The main benefit being an alternative to bus services

 

[me123]

I was on it recently and there were about 14 people in total on it.

From what I've heard, that sounds like a rather healthy loading!

Of course, it'd just be running empty to Craigentinny otherwise, so it's not a totally pointless service.

 

[90019]

From what I've heard, that sounds like a rather healthy loading!

Of course, it'd just be running empty to Craigentinny otherwise, so it's not a totally pointless service.

I was surprised it was that many when I got to Waverley, because there was only one other person in the coach I was in.

 

[route101]

id say about 20 on the service tonight . A fair few punters got on at motherwell .

 

[me123]

Aye, as I've said elsewhere, Edinburgh-Motherwell is a very important route that often gets overlooked. There's often excellent loadings throughout the day.

 

[CarterUSM]

Aye, as I've said elsewhere, Edinburgh-Motherwell is a very important route that often gets overlooked. There's often excellent loadings throughout the day.

The morning ScotRail service to Edinburgh(North Berwick) is pretty well loaded, as is the evening return, the 1518 eastbound is however sparsely loaded, not unknown to arrive at Haymarket with single figures, and as little as 3 or 4 people! Is there not a campaign group for the suburban line, and wasn't it the old trams that partly led to its closure? How ironic!

 

[PaulLothian]

Is there not a campaign group for the suburban line, and wasn't it the old trams that partly led to its closure?

Not sure about the effect of trams - they had coexisted happily for decades. I suspect that part of the problem was that the South Sub was a useful onward link for people who had reached the city by train, and that numbers doing that decreased steadily from the 1920s, leading, for example, to the eventual closure of all the Midlothian branches. A further problem was the decline of the traditional industrial centres in Edinburgh, meaning that it became less useful as a route to work for many. Finally the growth of the huge housing schemes on the city boundary meant that large parts of the population became reliant on buses and saw them as the default method of transport.

The Capital Rail Action Group still seems active - http://sites.google.com/site/capitalrailactiongroup/

The Scottish Parliament also discussed this a couple of years ago. I found a report on that here - http://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2008-12-03.13018.0

 

[Nightrider]

The Scottish Parliament also discussed this a couple of years ago. I found a report on that here - http://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2008-12-03.13018.0

Does anybody notice anything strange about this discussion in the Parliament.

 

[PaulLothian]

Does anybody notice anything strange about this discussion in the Parliament.

Give us a clue!

 

[Nightrider]

Give us a clue!

The one political party that has received millions of pounds over the last 100 odd years from railway workers doesn,t seem to have anybody at the meeting.



Maybe they were all on the train home.

 

[PaulLothian]

It doesn't list everyone in attendance, only those who spoke. Maybe they were there nodding vigorously!

 

[Nightrider]

It doesn't list everyone in attendance, only those who spoke. Maybe they were there nodding vigorously!

Order Order.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Capital Rail Action Group still seems active - http://sites.google.com/site/capitalrailactiongroup/events

Might try and go along to a couple of those meetings over the come months

Pity there wasn,t a similar group here in weegie land.

 

[tbtc]

Talking of Edinburgh lines (and not worth starting a seperate thread for), what about the Meadowbank loop?

It was open for the 1986 Commonwealth Games, and could be a good "loop" to get local services out of the way from delayed Long Distance ones, plus a station there would have a reasonable number of people living around it (since there is nothing else between Waverley and Brunstane/ Newcraighall).

Are there any plans to reopen?

 

[PaulLothian]

It would make sense as part of a reopened South Sub loop, but I doubt it would be considered in isolation - the frequency of services on the Berwick line isn't that great.

 

[tbtc]

It would make sense as part of a reopened South Sub loop, but I doubt it would be considered in isolation - the frequency of services on the Berwick line isn't that great.

Well, hourly to North Berwick (half hourly at times), half hourly to Newcraighall, a few randomly timed Scotrail services to Dunbar... you could be looking at a fifteen minute service, which is better than anything on the Slateford line gets

 

[Nightrider]

Rather than open a new thread i thought i,d put this article from the Herald here.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport-environment/rail-passenger-numbers-set-to-soar-in-20-years-1.1061917

 

[Sgt Elvan]

Just wondering aloud here but given the massive expense of the Edinburgh Trams project, what would have been the comparable cost of re-laying the old Edinburgh, Leith & Newhaven line to Leith Citadel via Powderhall then extending Airdrie to Bathgate services down that way? Around two and a half miles of track from Abbeyhill Junction. Stations at Abbeyhill, Leith Walk, Powderhall, Bonnington? Would certainly provide a good crossrail service for Leith.

When Edinburgh Council commisioned an extensive report into opening the South Sub in 2004, services from Waverley to Powderhall/Trinity actually performed well but the idea was not progressed due to probable future competition from the Trams. :roll:

Report link - http://download.edinburgh.gov.uk/Transport/FinalReportESSR.pdf

 

[PaulLothian]

To Leith Citadel - nice idea! However, if City of Edinburgh endorsed this, they would be shooting themselves in the foot in relation to money already spent on tramworks, and therefore are unlikely to support it.

 

[route101]

How many trains go to powderhall now?

 

[PhilipW]

Talking of Edinburgh lines (and not worth starting a seperate thread for), what about the Meadowbank loop?

What/where exactly is the Meadowbank loop ? I am not familiar with it.