Edinburgh electrification

[Aictos]

With regards to the proposed electrification works happening soon in the Edinburgh area, would it be viable for Craiglockhart Loop between Slateford Junction and the former station at Craiglockhart to be electrified as well as the Edinburgh Suburban line between Haymarket West Junction and Portobello Junction/Niddrie Curve as it would offer a alternative for Electric stock to avoid Edinburgh and could lead to some capacity improvements.

I don't know how much is being electrified or how far but surely it would also serve well as a diversionary route if Edinburgh has to be blocked for whatever reason.

Would it also be viable to reinstate the stations on the Edinburgh Suburban?

Your thought please....

 

[PaulLothian]

The Sub has been used regularly during past blockades with electric trains being dragged round. Not sure about the economics of electrifying only for that eventuality. Perhaps someone could advise how much freight goes that way nowdays?

As far as reinstating the stations, these would be rather more attractive with electric trains, and the time to the City Centre could be comparable to the bus (or better in rush hours). However, I am not convinced that this is an effective way forward, as many of the existing stations are not well sited, and are sufficiently far apart that people will not change from buses.

I spent time in the 1970s with a friend who was studying architecture/town planning working out how the Sub could be used effectively as part of an urban transport system; none of the solutions involved using the Sub as a complete loop.

 

[tbtc]

Nice idea, but if there are spare paths through Waverley and Haymarket then they would be better used on more services to East Lothian/ Fife etc.

Similarly if you are going to electrify more lines around Edinburgh then they would be better doing Kirknewton to Holytown (etc).

I can't see the justification in passenger services around the Sub, as people don't travel in "circles", they want a direct trip from the city centre to (say) Morningside.

 

[Failed Unit]

I am sure the Scottish government have looked into restoring passenger service to this route but couldn't get a business case to payback.

 

[rail-britain]

This electrification would need to be a project in its own, but could be run consecutively (same as many small schemes are tagged on to larger ones, like the Edinburgh - Carstairs was)

I can't see the justification in passenger services around the Sub, as people don't travel in "circles", they want a direct trip from the city centre to (say) Morningside

Although people are unlikely to travel round the "circle", in many such existing routes it means a train runs continuously and saves on dwell time, changing ends, etc

Such examples are the Fife Circle and Cathcart Circle (it's when you travel on the Cathcart Circle you realise how popular it actually is!)
People travel along the route, sometimes just between one or two stations rather than from the main terminus

I do agree that for Edinburgh it is vastly quicker to use other methods of transport
However, if a passenger has arrived by train in Edinburgh (and conversely if they are leaving from Edinburgh) then using one mode is typically the preference

Electrification would be a benefit, especially from 2018 when almost the entire Central Belt fleet will be EMUs
I can then see one other benefit
If the route via Shotts was electrified, then trains to/from Glasgow Central could then use this route, thus freeing up two paths per hour through Haymarket (ironically then taken up by one such circle service!)
Obviously the travel time increases slightly, but the travel options increase

However, having travelled on this route only twice how about some reasonable suggestions for stations
I can then look at this
Equally, if my memory is correct, the line diverges just after Slateford, so a slight remodelling would probably be required to allow the additional traffic

 

[route101]

Do many trains use the Edinburgh Surburban ?

 

[Dewedin]

There's a fair bit of freight that uses it. In fact once I was involved in a football event at Peffermill playing fields, which the sub runs through, and a lad hoofed the ball off the side of the pitch just as a Voyager was passing (looked like an empty movement), and it bounced off the side!

I don't think the sub would be a good case for electrification as it is.

Reinstating passenger services has been mooted a few times, when you consider how much the tram is costing for example the price would be a drop in the ocean. Takeup of new/reinstated rail services in Scotland has generally beaten estimates anyway. Even though the service would be circular, in many cases it would beat the bus travel time, especially for those travelling between the sub stations as bus routes are generally radial from Princes Street. Maybe someday this double-track urban route will be restored to its former glory.

 

[Failed Unit]

Do many trains use the Edinburgh Surburban ?

Xc have 1 train per day timetables that way for drivers knowledge. First Dundee of the morning. I am sure a late Evening return is booked that way. I have used it when Haymarket - Waverley is restricted. Very slow but interesting.

 

[rail-britain]

Do many trains use the Edinburgh Surburban ?

The late evening Cross Country Glasgow Central - Edinburgh uses this route

 

[Aictos]

In keeping in line with the query in the title, what lines are being electrified as part of the proposals for electrification, will Haymarket depot see wires?

 

[Failed Unit]

In keeping in line with the query in the title, what lines are being electrified as part of the proposals for electrification, will Haymarket depot see wires?

To be honest I have not noticed an structures heading to Haymarket depot but I do recall that stabling sidings may be wired. The suburban line is having masts put up near Haymarket but this may be to connect to the Carstairs route. All 4 lines will be wired until about Murrayfield. I haven't looked but I will be amazed if 0 isn't wired as well for capping late trains. Next time I am there I will let you know.

 

[Aictos]

To be honest I have not noticed an structures heading to Haymarket depot but I do recall that stabling sidings may be wired. The suburban line is having masts put up near Haymarket but this may be to connect to the Carstairs route. All 4 lines will be wired until about Murrayfield. I haven't looked but I will be amazed if 0 isn't wired as well for capping late trains. Next time I am there I will let you know.

Thanks,

 

[43106]

If I could add my fourpennoth...
They've been talking about re-opening the Sub for over 20 years, and the only action has been a lot of hot air at Edinburgh City Chambers and in the Scottish Parliament. I personally doubt if the line would be of much benefit, as there are a number of current Lothian bus routes (38, 42, 2 and 5) which "shadow" the line. It was believed that the extensions to Brunstane and Newcraighall would be a precursor to re-opening the Sub, but that never happened. The line to Newcraighall was electrified when the East Coast was sparked up, but it is Bathgate and Stirling/Dunblane services that work there, and they are all DMUs!
The electrification from Airdrie is only going as far as Waverley. I don't know where the EMUs are going to be stabled overnight, but I believe that they have built 8 newish sidings near Slateford station. There's something there, but you can't see much from the top deck of a number 4 bus! I haven't seen any additional wiring up in Haymarket depot, but that's from my observation from the Western Approach Road.

 

[route101]

The late evening Cross Country Glasgow Central - Edinburgh uses this route

Is that the 2048 from Central? I may take it when i have the time

 

[90019]

Is that the 2048 from Central? I may take it when i have the time

I was on it recently, it was almost empty.
I believe it also runs that way to turn the set around, as it went to couple to another one in Waverley, presumably for a service in the morning.

 

[Techniquest]

Interesting that, does it go via Carstairs? If so, it would use that bit that comes off the mainline in the Slateford to reach the Sub, correct? If so, I might have to bear that run in mind for the next time I do a Scottish bash.

 

[Aictos]

It is indeed the 2048, the headcode is 1C99 which is the same headcode as the FGW operated Penzance bound sleeper!

From looking at the workings, it seems like a Monday to Friday only working.

 

[rail-britain]

Interesting that, does it go via Carstairs?

Yes, I used it as a connection from the 16:30 Euston - Glasgow, to get to the Edinburgh sleeper as it was something to do for a few hours (rather than travel by Class 170 from Queen Street)
The connection was tight, but thankfully the Euston service arrives in the platform opposite so even when that Euston service arrived 10 minutes late I still made the connection (knowing where the 20:48 departed from)

The first time I used it the train had to reverse back along the sub due to a points failure out of Newcraighall!

Reversing of Voyagers is pointless
The route is normally used as an alternative (route knowledge) and to help reduce the demands through the western approaches from Haymarket into Waverley

 

[PaulLothian]

The line to Newcraighall was electrified when the East Coast was sparked up, but it is Bathgate and Stirling/Dunblane services that work there, and they are all DMUs!

It's now the Fife circle services that serves Newcraighall, which is annoying for those of us in the west with family in east Edinburgh! It seems likely that in due course those services may be cut back to Waverley, with new Borders Rail Link (Waverley line) diesel services providing the link from Newcraighall Park and Ride.

 

[Techniquest]

Cheers gents, adding that to the plan for my ALR in 2011 now

 

[me123]

Out of curiosity, would building this into the tram network somehow be a possibility? It would help to provide an even more frequent service on the line, as well as keeping a lot of paths to Waverley free.

Obviously, you would want to retain the route for freight avoiding Edinburgh and diversions, but if you could work that into it (perhaps by four tracking the suburban; two for tram/trains and two for freight and diversions?) it might be a better solution than eating up valuable paths at Waverley.

I don't know the area well enough to know if it would be feasible, though.

 

[PaulLothian]

I spent time in the 1970s with a friend who was studying architecture/town planning working out how the Sub could be used effectively as part of an urban transport system; none of the solutions involved using the Sub as a complete loop.

Our best model used on-street running for trams from the east end of Princes Street to site of Newington Station, and using the Sub to the east, where it would have connected the huge and rundown housing schemes in the southeast (now largely demolished and awaiting redevelopment) directly to the city centre; a second line would have continued on-street from Newington Station (using the then A7) to the south edge of the city, with possible continuation to Dalkeith; a third option from Newington was to use the Sub westwards, going onstreet around Craiglockhart to the southwestern suburbs. This seemed feasible in terms of levels of BR use of the Sub at that time, but we didn't get into the technical complications!

The plans (currently not being actively considered) for Edinburgh Tram Line 3 would cover some of the same area as our first option, but connecting in the new Royal Infirmary and the 'retail parks' of Fort Kinnaird. Neither of these destinations existed when we were planning!

 

[MCR247]

Out of curiosity, would building this into the tram network

Don't talk about trams to people in Edinburgh

 

[me123]

Well, they hate them now, but I'm sure they'll enjoy them once they're up and running...

*Ducks for cover*

 

[rail-britain]

Well, they hate them now, but I'm sure they'll enjoy them once they're up and running...

I am looking forward to them, I am still avoiding driving through Edinburgh (whenever possible)
Once the trams are operating I will quite happily use them from the suburbs to the city centre, I just need to find somewhere to park the car

 

[Aictos]

I'm looking forward to them as I think they will be successful as much as Sheffield's, Manchester's, Blackpool's and Nottingham's own Tram routes.

Just be nice if Peterborough followed suit,

 

[scotsman]

Interesting that, does it go via Carstairs? If so, it would use that bit that comes off the mainline in the Slateford to reach the Sub, correct? If so, I might have to bear that run in mind for the next time I do a Scottish bash.

Yes, it uses Slateford Junction and Carstairs North Junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't talk about trams to people in Edinburgh

Very true, it doesn't help the Evening News has turned against them to keep the readership up.

 

[me123]

I'm looking forward to them as I think they will be successful as much as Sheffield's, Manchester's, Blackpool's and Nottingham's own Tram routes.

I'm sure they will be successful. I'm generally opposed to them but, seeing as how they're happening and there's nothing we can do about it, we may as well just sit back and enjoy it. I must admit, I'm looking forward to a tram ride up to Leith rather than taking the bus.

And hopefully the network will expand to incorporate additional routes. I do hope that Line 3 (down to Musselburgh via the Royal Infirmary) gets the go-ahead, and that the proposal to send trams on the Edinburgh Suburban Line (it's not just me that likes the idea - some others have suggested it) also happens.

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm looking forward to them as I think they will be successful as much as Sheffield's, Manchester's, Blackpool's and Nottingham's own Tram routes.

As successful as Sheffield’s trams? What, you mean it’ll go belly up within five years of opening due to it being unable to recoup its’ costs, and be sold off at a major loss to a private operator?

Sorry, cheap, but humorously meant, dig there, the Sheffield system is now very successful. I’m a big supporter of light rail projects, and I’ve got my fingers and toes crossed that the Edinburgh tram gets off to a good start and is a success, so that proprietors of future light rail projects are not put off, and also for the benefit of the good people of Edinburgh! I hope there’s eventually a sort of t-shaped network with the initial line plus line 3 down to the Royal Infirmary and Musselburgh. Does anybody else think it would be a good idea to have a branch off this route to serve the A7 park and ride, and perhaps Dalkeith as well?

 

[PaulLothian]

Does anybody else think it would be a good idea to have a branch off this route to serve the A7 park and ride, and perhaps Dalkeith as well?

The Midlothian Council Plan for the proposed Shawfair New Town, just inside the Edinburgh Bypass, shows a spur off the Borders Rail Link to a station at the A7 Park and Ride!
http://www.midlothian.gov.uk/images/localplan/Shawfair_localplan.pdf