Edgware Rd platform changes

[MontyP]

Does anyone know why the Wimbledon and Circle Line via Victoria services that terminate have swapped platforms with each other?

 

[Dstock7080]

Does anyone know why the Wimbledon and Circle Line via Victoria services that terminate have swapped platforms with each other?

The new timetable introduced on 21 May swapped the platforms around to give the Circle Line drivers easier access to toilet facilities on platform 3.
A Circle train from Edgware Road to Hammersmith takes 69½ mins, a District train to Wimbledon is 29 mins, facilities also exist at both Hammersmith and Wimbledon.

 

[[.n]]

So does this now means to "interchange" on your Circle line journey as a passenger you now actually have the aggravation of having to go up and down the stairs? I thought one of the promises when the Circle stopped being the Circle was that a same platform interchange was part of the logic for being able to stop running proper circle line trains

 

[NSEFAN]

So does this now means to "interchange" on your Circle line journey as a passenger you now actually have the aggravation of having to go up and down the stairs? I thought one of the promises when the Circle stopped being the Circle was that a same platform interchange was part of the logic for being able to stop running proper circle line trains

How many journeys does the platform change affect? How many people from Gloucester Road and beyond travel round via Notting Hill Gate beyond Edgware Road, compared to those from the Wimbledon direction?

 

[edwin_m]

So does this now means to "interchange" on your Circle line journey as a passenger you now actually have the aggravation of having to go up and down the stairs? I thought one of the promises when the Circle stopped being the Circle was that a same platform interchange was part of the logic for being able to stop running proper circle line trains

The layout means that cross-platform interchange is only ever possible in one direction, so doesn't this change just mean it's now the other way from before?

 

[Mikey C]

So does this now means to "interchange" on your Circle line journey as a passenger you now actually have the aggravation of having to go up and down the stairs? I thought one of the promises when the Circle stopped being the Circle was that a same platform interchange was part of the logic for being able to stop running proper circle line trains

It was always only going one way round that this worked. And Circle Line trains occasionally ended up on the wrong platform anyway!

A bit odd to do the change now, surely the toilet issues would have been known about beforehand when they decided to break the Circle Line there.

If Edgware Road had been a 3 track station like Golders Green say, then the terminating trains in the middle platform would be equally available from either side. Indeed leaving aside the capacity problems this would cause, for the passenger this would have been quite convenient before the Circle Line was broken, when just the District Line trains terminated there.

 

[Dstock7080]

A bit odd to do the change now, surely the toilet issues would have been known about beforehand when they decided to break the Circle Line there.

That is truly the most surprising aspect of the change.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

So does this now means to "interchange" on your Circle line journey as a passenger you now actually have the aggravation of having to go up and down the stairs?

You can avoid this by changing at Paddington for the following Wimbleware to Edgware Road...

 

[Ianno87]

Went through the other day and noticed the signage had swapped around. Glad it wasn't me going mad!

 

[jopsuk]

Maybe the toilet issue has been missed when originally doing this? And has therefore been something the union has been raising, that LU have finally fixed.

 

[edwin_m]

It's hard to see how Edgware Road could be made to work any better without boring extra tunnels. Four-tracking between there and the junction at Paddington would allow the Hammersmith trains to be totally separated on the northern pair, but all eastbound and 50% of westbound passengers would have to go over a bridge when connecting onwards. Alternatively widening to the east could allow a reversing siding connecting to the two inner platforms, so that all terminators could tip out across the platform from the onward service and reverse to give cross-platform loading from a westbound through train.

 

[Ianno87]

It's hard to see how Edgware Road could be made to work any better without boring extra tunnels. Four-tracking between there and the junction at Paddington would allow the Hammersmith trains to be totally separated on the northern pair, but all eastbound and 50% of westbound passengers would have to go over a bridge when connecting onwards. Alternatively widening to the east could allow a reversing siding connecting to the two inner platforms, so that all terminators could tip out across the platform from the onward service and reverse to give cross-platform loading from a westbound through train.

But although great for passenger convenience, none of that work would let you run a single extra train compared to today.

 

[Dstock7080]

Moving the District trains to platform 2 also frees platform 3 to be used for Circle/H&C west-east reversals, something not available in pfm.2.

 

[edwin_m]

But although great for passenger convenience, none of that work would let you run a single extra train compared to today.

That is true of my second idea, but the first one would take out all the junction conflicts at Praed Street so would make the operation of the sub-surface lines considerably better. However, unless the tunnel between Edgware Road and Praed Street is already wide enough for four tracks it would be incredibly difficult.

 

[rebmcr]

I've had a quick stab at what I think would be the perfect layout, if space & money were no object. Presumably a rebuild on that scale would also include integration with the Bakerloo line station.

                        ,————————————————————————————————————————EB Through———————————————.
                       /                             /     ███████████████████████████     \
                      /                             /      ██ Edgware Road  P1 & P2 ██      \
                     /                             /       ███████████████████████████       \
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————Circle Terminators————————————————————————————————
                             /     \           /           ███████████████████████████                            
 ← Paddington (Bishops Rd)  /       \         /            █████ Staff Facilities ████            Baker Street →  
                           /         \       /             ███████████████████████████                            
—————————————————.        |     ,——————————————————————————————District Terminators———————————————————————————————
                  \       |    /         /         \       ███████████████████████████       /
                   \      |   |         /           \      ██ Edgware Road  P3 & P4 ██      /
                    \   \-------/      /             \     ███████████████████████████     /
                     '———————————————————————————————————————————WB Through———————————————'
                        /-------\
                          |   |
Paddington (Praed St)   ↓ |   |
                          |   |

 

[Dstock7080]

The Bishops Road and Pread Street labels need to be swapped.

 

[edwin_m]

This would also still need half of all passengers to cross the footbridge when connecting onto onward services. There would be a small improvement by severing the east end of the middle platforms to provide a level walkway, but ideally you'd create a reversing siding to the east as I suggested further back. This would probably involve creating a new bypass tunnel for the westbound Hammersmith track, diverging well east of Edgware Road, picking up the southernmost platform track and re-joining somewhere under Paddington (a tall order!).

 

[rebmcr]

The Bishops Road and Pread Street labels need to be swapped.

Today I learned that I have always been mistaken in thinking that the H&C platforms were the ones formerly named Praed St!

 

[rebmcr]

This would also still need half of all passengers to cross the footbridge when connecting onto onward services.

Agreed, however this is what most closely replicates the pre-uncircling situation: easy CPI for previously-direct Circles, more difficult change for Districts.

There would be a small improvement by severing the east end of the middle platforms to provide a level walkway

I thought about that, but the extra flexibility in being able to use those as through platforms during disruption won out for me. Perhaps some sort of interlocked retractable walkway (that only gets closed and retracted when the platform usage changes) would work...!

but ideally you'd create a reversing siding to the east as I suggested further back.

Do you mean to reduce the platformed tracks from 4 to 3? I'm not sure what that would gain, nor how the Train Op's needs would be served by it.

 

[edwin_m]

Do you mean to reduce the platformed tracks from 4 to 3? I'm not sure what that would gain, nor how the Train Op's needs would be served by it.

No, I probably wasn't being very clear. What I was suggesting would probably be two new sections of tunnel. Remembering we are in "money no object" territory, it would be something like the following:

The first tunnel would diverge from the westbound Hammersmith/Circle at least a train's length east of Edgware Road and re-join at the east end of platform 4 (which would probably be re-aligned - there is a siding that could be removed to make more space). This would allow what is now the westbound track to become a reversing siding connected to the east end of platforms 2 and 3. Terminating District/Circle trains could then drop passengers in 2, reverse in the siding and load in 3 creating cross-platform interchange in both directions.

The second tunnel would start from the west end of the re-aligned platform 4, dive under the two tracks towards Praed Street station (creating grade separation at Praed Street junction) and re-join the westbound Hammersmith/Circle line again before Bishops Road. Or if that isn't possible create a new platform at Bishops Road and re-join somewhere further west. This would probbaly be extremely difficult underneath a historic station which already has the Bakerloo, Crossrail and connecting passages!

 

[Mikey C]

If money was no object, I wouldn't be terminating BOTH the Circle and District lines up from High Street Ken at Edgware Road! Just going one stop further to Baker Street would make a massive difference to passenger convenience, as many passengers will be getting off the Circle Line there.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I suppose there was a reason, but why wasn't it possible for the trains terminating at Edgware Road to do an extra circuit? That way there's at least a chance that waiting at Praed Street would catch a Circle Line to Kings Cross an beyond.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I suppose there was a reason, but why wasn't it possible for the trains terminating at Edgware Road to do an extra circuit? That way there's at least a chance that waiting at Praed Street would catch a Circle Line to Kings Cross an beyond.

Because there's no spare paths beyond Baker Street?

You'd have to terminate and turn back half the trains from Hammersmith at Edgware Road if you did this - and that would also increase occupancy time at Edgware Road meaning fewer trains could run overall, so you'd have to remove half the others from the timetable as well...

 

[[.n]]

How many journeys does the platform change affect? How many people from Gloucester Road and beyond travel round via Notting Hill Gate beyond Edgware Road, compared to those from the Wimbledon direction?

I would have though a fair few are going to KGX/Euston, that's usually where I'm going to from High Street Ken

 

[Tetchytyke]

I would have though a fair few are going to KGX/Euston, that's usually where I'm going to from High Street Ken

If you're travelling from High Street Kensington then the platform change makes no difference. Half of the trains will still give you a cross-platform interchange at Edgware Road, it'll just be the Wimbleware trains rather than the Circle trains.

From South Kensington onwards, you'd either take the direct Piccadilly Line train or change at Victoria anyway, much quicker.

 

[[.n]]

If you're travelling from High Street Kensington then the platform change makes no difference. Half of the trains will still give you a cross-platform interchange at Edgware Road, it'll just be the Wimbleware trains rather than the Circle trains.

From South Kensington onwards, you'd either take the direct Piccadilly Line train or change at Victoria anyway, much quicker.

I think my main point was that it was originally supposed to be the Circle line train that gave you the same platform interchange as that was the replicating the original journey on the proper Circle line. It's never worked that well in any case both in terms of platform interchange and the ridiculously long waits at Edgware Road to continue your journey, and as far as I can tell it hasn't improved the reliability of the Circle line either, there are far too many gaps in the service for no (apparent) reason. The Circle line is the weakest, most unreliable part of my daily commute, and causes me the most aggravation.

 

[bluegoblin7]

there are far too many gaps in the service for no (apparent) reason

The Circle line is *far* more reliable than it was, but it's still absolutely the 'poor relation' of the SSR. The reasons are simple, though: it interworks with two (three if we're pedantic) different lines, both of which are much longer distance. Any delays on the Met or the District (or the Piccadilly...) can cause a knock-on effect on the Circle (and H&C), and once trains are in the Circle it's very hard to do anything with them until they come out the other side. Miss your path at a crucial junction and you're playing catch up all the way around, or if you're early there's often very little choice but to keep running early, as you'll probably delay whatever is behind you by sitting to time.

A train sat down at Edgware Road on the West can very quickly cause a train to sit down at Baker Street, and then block the junction for the Met, which then causes issues at Aldgate... and so on and so on.

The 'break' in the Circle has restored a lot of reliability - the vast majority of the time a train can arrive at Hammersmith 15 minutes late and depart back east absolutely on time, maintaining a 5 minute headway between C + H trains.

 

[jopsuk]

Assuming that adding diveunders etc is off the radar and that board street remains a constraint, a fantasy "solution" to the Edgeware Road issue would be to widen out the tunnel to the west of the station and add turn back sidings (two). You would then have all terminating trains use platform 2, shunt into the sidings, shunt into 3 to start the next service.

This really would be the way all "mid line terminal" stations should be laid out- maximises cross platform interchange and minimises conflict

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think my main point was that it was originally supposed to be the Circle line train that gave you the same platform interchange as that was the replicating the original journey on the proper Circle line.

Although only clockwise. Anti-clockwise the cross-platform connection was in to the Wimbleware. Things have just reversed.

I think it was more TfL bluster than anything else, trying to explain and justify the change.

The Circle Line will always be unreliable, but I think it has improved things, especially the Hammersmith-Liverpool Street section. The fixed terminus means it's a lot easier to step units up if there's delays, so we at least don't see the situation where the train just trundles around late all day now. There are still plenty of pinch points though, especially the Aldgate junctions, and so it's still sometimes erratic on the south of the Circle.

 

[Busaholic]

The Circle Line will always be unreliable.

Given Tfl's penchant for renaming things, may I suggest the Circle henceforth be called the Theresa i.e. weak and wobbly.