"Edge case" concerning Oyster 60+ relating to a Thameslink 9:28 train

[mrodent]

I've had one of these for 5 years now. I'm aware there are several questions about "touching in" with Oyster 60+ but haven't found an answer here to my specific question.

I live very close to a South London Zone 4 Thameslink station, Ravensbourne.

Occasionally when I go into (central) London, I have failed to touch in ... I've just jumped on. Nobody has ever bothered me ... in fact over the past 5 years I have never encountered a ticket inspector on a Thameslink train.

I've just had a suggestion from an "AI" chatbot that I am thereby making myself vulnerable to a £100 fine if found with a non-touched-in card (reduced to £50 if paid quickly).

This may be a hallucination: obviously you never know with these chatbots. OTOH it may be perfectly valid. From a rational PoV, it would seem irrational to require Oyster 60+ users to touch in, at least during the day well after 9:30 (or during the weekend): we are then "entitled" to travel free in zones 1 to 6. However, I would like to know the truth concerning the regs.

The simplest solution for me is obviously just to touch in properly henceforward.

However, I have an interesting "edge case" question here: during weekdays, at my station, there is a northbound train at 9:28 AM. On the face of it, I am not therefore eligible to take that train and have to wait until 9:58 (in fact there is a solution for me: the same train leaves the next station, Beckenham Hill, at 9:30, and the terminal there lets you touch in at 9:27, so a few days ago I took a pleasant walk through the park to Beckenham Hill).

In fact, in that chatbot question the chatbot cited a real FOI request which says that the off-peak weekday period in fact begins at 09:27, not 09:30.

A more recent FOI appears to confirm that "grace periods" continue to exist and that the morning off-peak for Oyster starts at 09:27.

The consequence of this would seem to be that I am OK to take the 9:28 (i.e. from Ravensbourne) ... but there is no Oyster terminal on the Ravensbourne northbound platform! If the train is on time I would have to touch in just after 09:27:00 and then rush down about 30 stairs, ... and of course these trains can leave up to 30 s before the official departure time!

It is therefore quite important for me to know whether I would indeed be risking £50 if I were to just risk it in that case, and jump on without touching in. I suspect there is a higher probability of encountering a ticket inspector at earlier times. And what if there are several people all trying to touch in at the single terminal at 09:27, i.e. a queue, quite plausible!

I suspect that it is necessary to touch in when starting a journey near the start of the off-peak periods: surely an inspector, in my case, is going to need to be able to ascertain that I didn't jump on at an earlier station, e.g. Shortlands, 09:26?

 

[Benjwri]

Rather impressively the Artifical ‘Intelligence’ is wrong on both counts.

There isn’t a requirement to touch in or out on a 60+ Oyster. If there is a reader it’s best practice to normally but you don’t have to, and for example if you use it on a split you do not have to get off the train and back on.

The grace period is meant to allow people to tap in to catch off peak trains, when this means they get on a slightly earlier train because they are using contactless it is just taken as the responsibility is on the system to determine the fare. However the terms of your Oyster are that it isn’t valid on National Rail before 09:30. There is no grace period in the terms and it is based on the departure time of your train which is clearly before 09:30. I would strongly advise you not to take the earlier train as you would not have a valid ticket.

This does further the common forum advice not to trust AI Chatbots, they are very often wrong and in this kind of area the penalties can be prosecution.

 

[mrodent]

In fact, rather like you seemingly, I don't recognise the acronym "AI", because there is no "I" whatsoever and never will be with this LLM technology. I didn't at any time "trust" this output from SP (statistical processing), the correct acronym.

But these systems are very useful as a first survey for research, and particularly when you can't any longer get to actually speak to a knowledgeable and authoritative human being.

The second stage might be to come and ask a question on a forum such as this.

It seems unlikely that you followed up the two FOI links. These are nothing whatsoever to do with the SP output and are authoritative (tfl.gov.uk). Both seem to contradict your assertions. The more recent is from July 2025.

I'm not convinced by either of your assertions, simply because you haven't given any probative proof for either. It seems very likely to me, to repeat my final sentence, that a ticket inspector is likely to have powers to ensure that 60+ card users are not jumping on earlier than 9.30 on weekdays. They could only have those powers if 60+ users who haven't touched in around the time of the off-peak start time can be fined. Later in the day that wouldn't apply of course.

If you can offer something other than opinions for either point that would be genuinely interesting to see.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is a requirement to tap in and out when using Oyster. That is the starting position.

When using a Travelcard within its time and zones of validity- and the over-60 Oyster is a Travelcard for this purpose- there are no negative consequences for not tapping in and out. This is so that you can use a Travelcard on Oyster in conjunction with other tickets (e.g. tickets from a fare zone boundary).

The grace period relates to PAYG and is there to make sure that people are not charged peak fares for travelling at off-peak times, the system allows a small amount of flex either side of the peak cut-off times.

My understanding is that this grace period only applies to PAYG. The condition is that the over-60 Oyster is not valid for use on National Rail services before 0930*. So you do not have a valid ticket for a train which departs at 0928.

(*in general- for some routes it is 0900)

 

[Gaelan]

The second stage might be to come and ask a question on a forum such as this.

Speaking for myself, I'm much more inclined to help someone when they've come to me with a straightforward question and the fruits of their own research, rather than the starting point being some nonsense LLM output that I then have to refute.

I think the key difference here is that with Oyster PAYG, a customer who has tapped in (and is within the maximum journey time) unambiguously has the right to be on the network (or the part of it for which Oyster is valid); there is no notion, in the Oyster rules, of traveling by an invalid route or at the wrong time. You are simply charged the appropriate fare, and any failure of the system to identify that you took a more expensive route is not your problem. (See the Oyster conditions of use on National Rail services - it explains how to tap in and out but never says anything about your itinerary.) In some cases (e.g. tapping in between 09:27 and 09:30), TfL may charge you a lower fare than advertised, which is their prerogative; obviously this is strictly to your benefit.

On the other hand, your card is not a way to record a journey so TfL can calculate the fare; in fact I understand you can't put PAYG credit on it at all. It is instead simply evidence of the specific travel rights you do have. Looking at the terms of your card (available here), I note two things:
(1) item 5.6 explicitly says "you must touch your card on the reader". I'm not sure how this squares with the policy that @Tetchytyke cites.
(2) the terms, and the page linked from there, quote the time restriction as 09:30, not 09:27.

As I understand it, 09:27 is strictly an unadvertised grace period in the PAYG system, to allow people to catch 09:30 trains and more generally to reduce arguments from people who may have tapped in a few seconds too early. While TfL has admitted to it in FoI responses (as they would be required to), it's never been explicitly advertised to customers and doesn't form part of any contract.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 13:44 ==

It's a shame it's not possible to store PAYG credit on a 60+ Oyster. If it were, you could simply keep enough PAYG credit for the peak journey on your card, and be entirely within your rights to travel "intending" to use PAYG, even though TfL never happens to actually charge you.

 

[mrodent]

On the other hand, your card is not a way to record a journey so TfL can calculate the fare

That raises an interesting related point: what exactly shows in the "memory" of an Oyster 60+?

I had assumed that both the last touch-in terminal and the last touch-in time would be readable by the inspector's widget. If that is not the case, it implies quite a bit about the leeway given to Oyster 60+ users: at the most lax, it would mean that they could only be fined if caught on a train before 09:30, or in a situation where they MUST have boarded before 09:30. For the record I'd be surprised if the rules are indeed that lax.

This seemingly semi-official, or semi-published, status of the "grace period", without clarification about what it means, should be corrected.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I note two things:
(1) item 5.6 explicitly says "you must touch your card on the reader". I'm not sure how this squares with the policy that @Tetchytyke cites.

The over-60 Oyster is treated as a Travelcard.

You must touch in and out. But, because it is a Travelcard, there are no negative consequences for failing to do so.

I had assumed that both the last touch-in terminal and the last touch-in time would be readable by the inspector's widget. If that is not the case, it implies quite a bit about the leeway given to Oyster 60+ users: at the most lax, it would mean that they could only be fined if caught on a train before 09:30, or in a situation where they MUST have boarded before 09:30. For the record I'd be surprised if the rules are indeed that lax.

The inspector can see if an Oyster has been touched in and can see where it was touched in.

But yes, a holder of an over-60 Oyster would only be travelling without a valid ticket if they were travelling before 0930 or travelling outside the Oyster's validity.

This seemingly semi-official, or semi-published, status of the "grace period", without clarification about what it means, should be corrected

The grace period is there to take into account the time it will take someone to get from the barriers/readers to the platform and also to take into account any potential inconsistencies on the timing. The grace period is only a couple of minutes, nothing more.

It's mostly there for PAYG users, to make sure they're not charged a peak fare for travelling off-peak. But it also means you will likely be able to touch in your over-60 Oyster from 0927ish. It doesn't mean you ticket is valid on a train at 0928 though.

 

[mrodent]

So Oyster 60+ at Ravensbourne going north on a weekday: I've pretty much become convinced that the "grace period", whatever it may mean wrt PAYG cards, does not mean that I can take an 09:28 train from Ravensbourne.

But ... what is the situation if I touch in at 09:27 (the time when the terminal starts allowing me to do so), go down to the platform ... and the train is late departing. Thameslink is not the Swiss railways.

If it leaves at 09:30 or 09:32 ... am I "legal"? If inspected by an inspector she or he could say "well it says here that you touched in at 09:27, and then you caught the 09:28... £100 please".

Funnily enough, something along these lines happened the other day: to take the 09:28 from Ravensbourne I walked to the next stop, Beckenham Hill, from where the same train is supposed to leave at 09:30. The terminal duly started to accept my touch-in at 09:27. And then we were told that the 09:30 was "35 minutes late" ... yes, it was something absurdly long like that. But ... an earlier train turned up in the mean time and I thus left at around 09:35. On a train which normally I wouldn't have been able to take.

Do inspectors know about and take into account train delays?

 

[jumble]

The over-60 Oyster is treated as a Travelcard.

You must touch in and out. But, because it is a Travelcard, there are no negative consequences for failing to do so.


The inspector can see if an Oyster has been touched in and can see where it was touched in.

But yes, a holder of an over-60 Oyster would only be travelling without a valid ticket if they were travelling before 0930 or travelling outside the Oyster's validity.



The grace period is there to take into account the time it will take someone to get from the barriers/readers to the platform and also to take into account any potential inconsistencies on the timing. The grace period is only a couple of minutes, nothing more.

It's mostly there for PAYG users, to make sure they're not charged a peak fare for travelling off-peak. But it also means you will likely be able to touch in your over-60 Oyster from 0927ish. It doesn't mean you ticket is valid on a train at 0928 though.

I agree fully that an over 60 Oyster is not valid on a 09.28 National Rail service
An over 60 oyster will open the underground barriers or give a green light on a bus at around 09.27 and I cannot imagine that TFL would be bothered by people travelling or try and prosecute anyone on any of their non publicly timetabled services as i doubt this would meet the public interest test.

 

[MikeWh]

It's a shame it's not possible to store PAYG credit on a 60+ Oyster. If it were, you could simply keep enough PAYG credit for the peak journey on your card, and be entirely within your rights to travel "intending" to use PAYG, even though TfL never happens to actually charge you.

This crops up from time to time. The system has no knowledge of which service you will use. At Clapham Junction you can use an Overground service after 0900, but anything else has to wait until 0930. At Watford Junction you can use an Overground service but not a London Northwestern Railway service. Other examples are available.

Do inspectors know about and take into account train delays?

They don't need to. There is no mention of scheduled time, so once the time is valid you can take the train.

I think it unlikely that anyone will be fussed about taking a train at 0928, especially if access to the platform was via a gate which opened when you touched the card on the reader. At my local station the gateline staff are well aware that the gates work from 0927 and will encourage people to enter from that time.

I'm afraid that I don't know what the absolute legal position is. I'm not aware of anyone suffering consequences from getting on a train between 0927 and 0930.

 

[mrodent]

There is no mention of scheduled time, so once the time is valid you can take the train.

Thanks.

The problem is that that reasoning only works if I can indeed take a 09:28 train, having touched in 09:27, which most posters here seem to think is a contravention.

Otherwise it seems perfectly feasible that, having got on to the 09:28 departing late at 09:30 at Ravensbourne, I get to Elephant and some inspector says to me "this is the train which left Ravensbourne at 09:28: £100 fine!"

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, is a possible workaround for the OP to get an appropriate single ticket valid on the 0928? Or does that not work if they then need to tap out again (one stop later at Beckenham Hill at 0930?)

 

[Thames99]

This crops up from time to time. The system has no knowledge of which service you will use. At Clapham Junction you can use an Overground service after 0900, but anything else has to wait until 0930. At Watford Junction you can use an Overground service but not a London Northwestern Railway service. Other examples are available.

They don't need to. There is no mention of scheduled time, so once the time is valid you can take the train.

I think it unlikely that anyone will be fussed about taking a train at 0928, especially if access to the platform was via a gate which opened when you touched the card on the reader. At my local station the gateline staff are well aware that the gates work from 0927 and will encourage people to enter from that time.

I'm afraid that I don't know what the absolute legal position is. I'm not aware of anyone suffering consequences from getting on a train between 0927 and 0930.

I'm just querying this. At Reading off-peak tickets to Paddington are apparently only valid on trains scheduled to leave after 09.30. When there is disruption announcements are made telling passengers that they can't use delayed trains even though it is well after 09.30. I assumed that this was a general rule, but apparently not at the OP's station.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But ... what is the situation if I touch in at 09:27 (the time when the terminal starts allowing me to do so), go down to the platform ... and the train is late departing. Thameslink is not the Swiss railways.

ADepends on the ticket, some are just purely time-based restrictions and some are based on the scheduled departure time of the train.

In this case, the Oyster restriction is simply that it is not valid for use before 0930. So if the train arrives at 0931 you can use it.

Now whether a) anyone would care if you took the 0928, and b) anyone would stop you in the three minutes between stations, who knows. Probably not. Depends on your risk appetite really!

 

[jfollows]

It’s in the restrictions associated with the ticket. Reading might be O9 (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/o9/),

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30 (Not before 09:31 from Reading.)

but the over 60 Oyster appears to be (https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/60-plus-oyster-photocard#on-this-page-1)

Free travel on bus, Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground and Elizabeth line (except West Drayton-Reading):

• Monday to Friday: free anytime, except between 04:30-09:00

Travel on National Rail​

Free travel on most National Rail services in London:

• Monday to Friday: free anytime, except between 04:30-09:30

and they’re not the same restriction. As @Tetchytyke has just posted also.

 

[yorkie]

The consequence of this would seem to be that I am OK to take the 9:28 (i.e. from Ravensbourne) ... but there is no Oyster terminal on the Ravensbourne northbound platform! If the train is on time I would have to touch in just after 09:27:00 and then rush down about 30 stairs, ... and of course these trains can leave up to 30 s before the official departure time!

The official position for your pass is that it's valid from 0930, while for Pay As You Go the advertised position is that you tap in from 0930.

Yes, there is a grace period but this isn't intended that people would rush to make 0928 trains that are not advertised as being valid.

It is therefore quite important for me to know whether I would indeed be risking £50 if I were to just risk it in that case, and jump on without touching in. I suspect there is a higher probability of encountering a ticket inspector at earlier times. And what if there are several people all trying to touch in at the single terminal at 09:27, i.e. a queue, quite plausible!

I suspect that it is necessary to touch in when starting a journey near the start of the off-peak periods: surely an inspector, in my case, is going to need to be able to ascertain that I didn't jump on at an earlier station, e.g. Shortlands, 09:26?

If you are intending to catch a train before your pass officially becomes valid, then my strong recommendation is that you do tap in; this doesn't necessarily make the pass unequivocally valid at 0928, but the fact you were able to tap in at that time is likely to be accepted in the event that you were inspected at a point where it may reasonably be determined that the pass was used before 0930.

If you do not tap in and take the 0928, then you have a very weak argument in my opinion; it may be best not to risk that.

I'm just querying this. At Reading off-peak tickets to Paddington are apparently only valid on trains scheduled to leave after 09.30. When there is disruption announcements are made telling passengers that they can't use delayed trains even though it is well after 09.30. I assumed that this was a general rule, but apparently not at the OP's station.

That depends on the specific restriction specified by the ticket/product/pass held.

 

[talldave]

This crops up from time to time. The system has no knowledge of which service you will use. At Clapham Junction you can use an Overground service after 0900, but anything else has to wait until 0930. At Watford Junction you can use an Overground service but not a London Northwestern Railway service. Other examples are available.

Does that mean that all Clapham Junction barriers open from 9am for a 60+ Oyster?

 

[MikeWh]

Does that mean that all Clapham Junction barriers open from 9am for a 60+ Oyster?

I don't know, but you should certainly be let through if you show it. Possibly more likely at the platform 1 side, but I've not tried it.