ECS moves that could become passenger services

[hux385]

I heard that West Midlands Railway recently converted some ECS moves into passenger services, particularly in the early morning. Are there other examples from TOCs where a service could be converted? What would be the reasons for and against such changes?

 

[Ellis101]

Or you could take the Avanti approach and turn some passenger services into ECS Moves!

The 0700 MAN-EUS express
(Thankfully common sense prevailed here)

 

[RiverDon]

5A62 the 06:19 Aberdeen to Huntly could easily runs as a passenger service, the conductor is on it anyway and it is booked to stop at Inverurie to drop off a unit so it could fill a big gap in the service there from 06:38 to 07:42. Similarly the last Inverurie at night terminates at 23:13 then runs back to Aberdeen empty with the conductor on board, if it ran as a passenger back you'd have a late night service getting into Aberdeen for 23:54. The equivalent last Montrose service runs back to Aberdeen as a passenger (departs Montrose at 23:06 and arrives at 23:52), so there's no real reason why the Inverurie shouldn't do the same.

 

[Avenger20]

5A62 the 06:19 Aberdeen to Huntly could easily runs as a passenger service, the conductor is on it anyway and it is booked to stop at Inverurie to drop off a unit so it could fill a big gap in the service there from 06:38 to 07:42. Similarly the last Inverurie at night terminates at 23:13 then runs back to Aberdeen empty with the conductor on board, if it ran as a passenger back you'd have a late night service getting into Aberdeen for 23:54. The equivalent last Montrose service runs back to Aberdeen as a passenger (departs Montrose at 23:06 and arrives at 23:52), so there's no real reason why the Inverurie shouldn't do the same.

There are quite a few in Scotland, North Berwick is an example with the first three to NBW running empty and the last one back empty as well, same with Dunbar. Likely negligible passenger numbers but the crew are all aboard for the return working.

Elsewhere, the 1816 empties from Glenrothes to Haymarket Depot runs into platform 0 at Haymarket to allow the conductor to alight, so this could in theory run in service from GLT to HYM. It even has a booked 13 minute pathing stop at Dunfermline City so it could absolutely call at all stops and still be on time.

Sure there are a great many over West, too many to list.

 

[Trothy]

An early morning ECS from Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield was converted to a passenger service when Manchester ROC opened to provide an early morning service from Manchester Picc to Ashburys.

 

[NSE]

There’s nothing to stop the first Seaford of the day coming from Brighton in service as opposed to ECS. The last one of the day does the same, however the ECS move back to Brighton can run via Wivelsfield so that might put pay to that.

 

[TransportHub]

The biggest reason for not converting ECS (that are fully crewed) to pax I've heard is the extra cost of replacement buses when there's engineering work. Especially remembering that ECS are normally at the extremes of the day so more likely to be affected by engineering work

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are a few morning Bletchley starters which have full crew but run ECS to Tring. There are some that run in service so when all is well they aren't needed, but in disruption having them all in service would be handy. They used to be.

 

[Condor7]

I am unsure whether it is fully crewed but Barrow in Furness, which already has limited night time passenger trains, runs an ECS at 04:25 5C99 to Lancaster. I have often wondered why it doesn’t take passengers.

 

[Harpo]

Maybe not convert them but the cross empty trains that pass each other between Manchester and Liverpool every morning are crying out for some common sense.

5J01 04+55 Allerton - Man Vic (06+03)
(Lime St 05+14 05+23)
5B66 03+59 Ardwick -Lime St (05+34)
5J02 05+40 Lime St - Man Vic (06+22)

Realtime Trains | 5J01 0455 Allerton Depot to Manchester Victoria | 28/05/2026

Real-time train running information for 5J01 0455 departure from Allerton Depot to Manchester Victoria on 28/05/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5B66 0359 Ardwick T.M.D to Liverpool Lime Street | 28/05/2026

Real-time train running information for 5B66 0359 departure from Ardwick T.M.D to Liverpool Lime Street on 28/05/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5J02 0540 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria | 28/05/2026

Real-time train running information for 5J02 0540 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria on 28/05/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am unsure whether it is fully crewed but Barrow in Furness, which already has limited night time passenger trains, runs an ECS at 04:25 5C99 to Lancaster. I have often wondered why it doesn’t take passengers.

Often the reason for these is that a guard is not rostered. Is one on this?

 

[Peter0124]

The 06:25 Newton to Glasgow Central could easily start back from Motherwell, where the crew and stock are based.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

What would be the reasons for and against such changes?

The biggest reason for not converting ECS (that are fully crewed) to pax I've heard is the extra cost of replacement buses when there's engineering work

Engineering works road replacement transport is one example. Operational flexibility in general being another, in that during eng works overnight possessions, there will often be a need to revise where empty trains come from/go to in order to stable.
If those empty trains become passenger trains in the base plan, the consequence could be reduced down time for eng possessions, which NR will fight tooth and nail to prevent (for good reasons), the result being that those 'new' passenger trains will often be cancelled/replaced by buses on a fairly frequent basis, which will involve more work and more costs.
Once in the base plan, any such (pass) trains will prove a devil to take out again, even if it proves they are STP cancelled more often than they run.

In short, early and late ECS moves often (not always to be fair), are crucial to giving the planning side a degree of flexibility.

 

[co-tr-paul]

The ECS Nihht Riviera sleeper movements between Padd to Reading ... ?

 

[dodecahedron67]

Maybe not convert them but the cross empty trains that pass each other between Manchester and Liverpool every morning are crying out for some common sense.

5J01 04+55 Allerton - Man Vic (06+03)
(Lime St 05+14 05+23)
5B66 03+59 Ardwick -Lime St (05+34)
5J02 05+40 Lime St - Man Vic (06+22)

5J01/5J02 are 769s coming off Allerton to go onto the Stalybridge/Southport shuttles. Lime St conductors for Northern don’t sign 769s so can’t convert those.

5B66 has no guard rostered, and I think the economics of having a guard book on at 0400 at Piccadilly to taxi to Victoria to work a train to Liverpool at 0445 are unlikely to be positive.
5B66 then forms 1B66 via the CLC, which Piccadilly guards at TPE don’t sign, so it’d be stupidly inefficient diagramming

 

[jamiestuart314]

One service i've never understood is these 3 on a Sunday on the argyle line, it runs from Balloch to Dalmuir in service (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W68467/2026-05-24/detailed#allox_id=0) then the same train runs empty to Exhibition Centre (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W87367/2026-05-24/detailed#allox_id=0) before it becomes a passenger service AGAIN at Exhibition Centre for Rutherglen (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W83338/2026-05-24/detailed). I have no clue why they don't just run it as one continuious service from Balloch to Rutherglen?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

5J01/5J02 are 769s coming off Allerton to go onto the Stalybridge/Southport shuttles. Lime St conductors for Northern don’t sign 769s so can’t convert those.

5B66 has no guard rostered, and I think the economics of having a guard book on at 0400 at Piccadilly to taxi to Victoria to work a train to Liverpool at 0445 are unlikely to be positive.
5B66 then forms 1B66 via the CLC, which Piccadilly guards at TPE don’t sign, so it’d be stupidly inefficient diagramming

And further to my comments above, as you point out, crewing is also a major factor in the costs of such initiatives, whichever TOC we are talking of. Good point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2026 ==

One service i've never understood is these 3 on a Sunday on the argyle line, it runs from Balloch to Dalmuir in service (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W68467/2026-05-24/detailed#allox_id=0) then the same train runs empty to Exhibition Centre (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W87367/2026-05-24/detailed#allox_id=0) before it becomes a passenger service AGAIN at Exhibition Centre for Rutherglen (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W83338/2026-05-24/detailed). I have no clue why they don't just run it as one continuious service from Balloch to Rutherglen?

I've not looked in to the detail of your attachments, but in simple terms it is often based around driver and guard depot establishments, as in how many bodies are available to work various services.

Forgive this retired old fart Southern railwayman, who has no knowledge of present day Scotrail crew diagramming rules, but does have old school (BR) knowledge in general (very dangerous in such conversations I admit), but does the man/woman in the van decamp at Dalmuir due to other duties or has to sign off due to hours worked, and hence the train is DOO forward to Exhibition centre?

 

[Avenger20]

And further to my comments above, as you point out, crewing is also a major factor in the costs of such initiatives, whichever TOC we are talking of. Good point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2026 ==


I've not looked in to the detail of your attachments, but in simple terms it is often based around driver and guard depot establishments, as in how many bodies are available to work various services.

Forgive this retired old fart Southern railwayman, who has no knowledge of present day Scotrail crew diagramming rules, but does have old school (BR) knowledge in general (very dangerous in such conversations I admit), but does the man/woman in the van decamp at Dalmuir due to other duties or has to sign off due to hours worked, and hence the train is DOO forward to Exhibition centre?

These services are DOO anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2026 ==

The ECS Nihht Riviera sleeper movements between Padd to Reading ... ?

I somewhat doubt that has a guard allocated to it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

These services are DOO anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2026 ==


I somewhat doubt that has a guard allocated to it.

Strathclyde Agreement DOO, which means a second non safety critical member of staff is effectively mandatory.

 

[Some guy]

The morning Lancaster to Windermere service should start from Preston in the mornin. It comes ECS from Blackpool with a conductor and driver and even reverses at Preston

 

[TransportHub]

One service i've never understood is these 3 on a Sunday on the argyle line, it runs from Balloch to Dalmuir in service (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W68467/2026-05-24/detailed#allox_id=0) then the same train runs empty to Exhibition Centre (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W87367/2026-05-24/detailed#allox_id=0) before it becomes a passenger service AGAIN at Exhibition Centre for Rutherglen (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W83338/2026-05-24/detailed). I have no clue why they don't just run it as one continuious service from Balloch to Rutherglen?

There are two ways to get from Dalmuir to Exhibition Centre, so at a guess it could be so the train can be routed either way without having to pull the intermediant stops? But then why it couldn't be booked non stop Dalmuir to Partick....

 

[Harpo]

5J01/5J02 are 769s coming off Allerton to go onto the Stalybridge/Southport shuttles. Lime St conductors for Northern don’t sign 769s so can’t convert those.

5B66 has no guard rostered, and I think the economics of having a guard book on at 0400 at Piccadilly to taxi to Victoria to work a train to Liverpool at 0445 are unlikely to be positive.
5B66 then forms 1B66 via the CLC, which Piccadilly guards at TPE don’t sign, so it’d be stupidly inefficient diagramming

My ops background told me it wouldn’t be straightforward but over a year theres a potential saving of,

- Around 18k miles on the 185 fleet
- 35-40,000 litres of diesel
- Around 600 drivers hours.

 

[Segedunum]

There are quite a few in Scotland, North Berwick is an example with the first three to NBW running empty and the last one back empty as well, same with Dunbar. Likely negligible passenger numbers but the crew are all aboard for the return working.

Elsewhere, the 1816 empties from Glenrothes to Haymarket Depot runs into platform 0 at Haymarket to allow the conductor to alight, so this could in theory run in service from GLT to HYM. It even has a booked 13 minute pathing stop at Dunfermline City so it could absolutely call at all stops and still be on time.

Sure there are a great many over West, too many to list.

When the 1816 reaches Inverkeithing it is right on the tail of a service from Leven to Edinburgh so I suspect patronage would be quite low - though looking at the path it could be a passenger service if you really wanted it to be, no pathing stops in loops or the like.

Only stickler might be that five minute turnaround at Haymarket - it may well be fine but for a change ends and securing the train that'd be tight.

 

[jamiestuart314]

There are two ways to get from Dalmuir to Exhibition Centre, so at a guess it could be so the train can be routed either way without having to pull the intermediant stops? But then why it couldn't be booked non stop Dalmuir to Partick....

It does confuse me too, I assume it must be the lack of a TE, though you'd expect it to run direct to Central where loads are based at?

 

[Dave61]

The biggest reason for not converting ECS (that are fully crewed) to pax I've heard is the extra cost of replacement buses when there's engineering work. Especially remembering that ECS are normally at the extremes of the day so more likely to be affected by engineering work

Do they not also run non-stop on the trip? Adding stops will make it take longer and you could start running into hours limits especially towards the end of the day.

 

[TransportHub]

Do they not also run non-stop on the trip? Adding stops will make it take longer and you could start running into hours limits especially towards the end of the day.

That varies from train to train. Some will run non stop, others will have stops for pathing and others non stop but with pathing time in the schedule.

Again with crew diagrams that varies, some will be right on the limit and unable to be extended, others will be able to be extended

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Thereotically, 5Y54 18:54 Dorking to Wimbledon Park could become a passenger service between Dorking and Wimbledon.

The stock for the move is formed off 1D51 17:53 Waterloo to Dorking, which we clear out at Dorking and then dispatch as empties, travelling on it as far as Wimbledon where we leave and the train continues DOO into the sidings at Wimbledon Park.

Though given the direction and time of day (and the fact it would run non-stop from Dorking to Wimbledon), I wouldn't think it would provide much, if any, benefit.

 

[Peter0124]

It does confuse me too, I assume it must be the lack of a TE, though you'd expect it to run direct to Central where loads are based at?

The Exhibition Centre starting point is likely to do with concerts at the OVO Hydro, maybe it runs ECS to makesure theres enough room for everyone there.

 

[nineteenninety]

The TFW 5V33 05:13 Crewe C.S - Manchester Piccadilly via WBQ could be a potential candidate, although I'm not sure how high the demand is for Crewe to Manchester at 5am.

 

[dk1]

The ECS Nihht Riviera sleeper movements between Padd to Reading ... ?

There would be no need for it to carry passengers with the amount of services at those times between those two stations especially as it is ridiculously slow. It would also make it complicated operationally should changes need to occur and does it even have a guard rostered onboard?