ECML & WCML - do "up" and "down" reverse at border?

[Ken H]

This is an incredibly common problem (I did history as my undergraduate degree, it was a big risk even for more general subjects), especially with railway history where individuals quickly gain a reputation for being authorities on a matter and so their mistakes tend to be perpetuated.

There is also the problem of errors in official documents made at the time. Some of the clerks would have been semi literate, lazy or impatient. I have found errors in official documents from the 19th century in my geniology research.

 

[adrock1976]

Harrogate is one.

Mileposts are from Manchester London Road (now Piccadilly) but believe the Down and Up lines are conventionally aligned with regards to London - a rare example of Mileage increasing in the Up direction.
From Marylebone the mileage actually changes several times - Marylebone is measured from Manchester, than at Neasden South Jn it switches to being measured from Northolt Jn then at Northolt Jn it starts increasing away from that point.
Heading towards Aylesbury the Mileage changes at the NR/LU boundary, with the LU (former Met?) mileage continued from Great Missenden (increasing in the down). Just north of Quainton Road the old GC mileage returns, decreasing in the down.
The Princes Risborough-Aylesbury Branch is a different mileage to both lines, making me think it's possibly Zeroed at Paddington. In the same Area, East-West Rail will also be an oddity with the zero just west of Bletchley, so Mileage decreases in the down from Oxford to Bletchley then starts increasing again as it crosses the WCML. I don't know if there's a plan to remile Oxford-Bletchley once EWR opens but I suspect not.

EDIT: Have just found the following old threads which may be of interest

Up and Down

Raising as new thread, from this one on timetables, quoting posts from there, as a separately interesting one The 1850 Bradshaw (reprint unfortunately) has Tables headed 'Down' heading away from London (or any other route) alongside tables headed 'UP' in standard railway convention but the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Low mileage end / high mileage end?

Hi, I'm very new to rail and was wondering how the low mileage end and high mileage end are determined? Is it to do with the Up and the Down, e.g. the UP travels towards higher mileage and the Down towards lower mileage?

www.railforums.co.uk

MS&L mileage was measured from London Road via Woodhead, eventually to Marylebone.
CLC mileage was measured from Liverpool Central, and there are still some very odd legacy mileages/directions south and east of Manchester.

I'm not sure about the original Liverpool & Manchester line, which you would expect to be Down from Liverpool (where the mileage starts).
Today it is Up, with the LNWR focussed on Euston.

I gather HS2 has a "London" line, and a "Birmingham" line, but the railway operators have not got to grips with it yet.

Many thanks both.

Regarding the changes of mileage in the historic Middlesex area, this seems to reflect the great big falling out the GC had with the Metropolitan Railway (especially with the running of the shared section Quainton Road? - Harrow-on-the-Hill), and then a more friendlier partnership with the Great Western (being as the GWR was at the time looking for a shorter route south of Banbury/Anhyo Junction).

 

[G Broughton]

I was told by my dad in the old LNER days that “it’s always up to London to see THE QUEEN “

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Apr 2023 ==

Actually pre 1948 it was the King as it is now

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Apr 2023 ==

 

[snowball]

There is also the problem of errors in official documents made at the time. Some of the clerks would have been semi literate, lazy or impatient. I have found errors in official documents from the 19th century in my geniology research.

Since I've been a member of this forum I've seen two blatant lies in Network Rail press notices, just on the subject of the start/finish dates of current infrastructure enhancements near Manchester. Maybe they'll be copied in future books.

 

[saxsux]

I've always thought Cromer to be a very interesting station. Trains on the present-day branch run "down" from Norwich to Cromer (as you'd expect, following the "down from the major city" principle) and the mileage increases with distance from Norwich. On the outskirts of the town, after about 24 miles, there are two mileage changes at the sites of former junctions. When the train leaves Cromer towards Sheringham (and the end of the present-day NR line), it's now travelling "up" and mileage is 46 miles and decreasing.

Cromer (formerly Cromer Beach) was once a terminus for two separate lines from Norwich. One - the present-day branch line - was the Great Eastern Railway's line from Norwich via North Walsham. The final few miles of the branch from Cromer - Sheringham are the remains of the M&GNJR's line from Norwich via the longer Melton Constable route. I like that the mileage and direction of the line reflect this history.

The Waterloo-Salisbury-Exeter line is Down from London all the way to the junction at the throat of St Davids. So I suppose they are technically travelling 'Up' for a hundred yards or so until clear of the platform.

I think you mean they're technically travelling "down" (away from Paddington) for a hundred yards or so! Once over the junction, they're travelling "up" on the South West Mainline towards Waterloo.

I suppose a train travelling from Paignton to Exmouth would be travelling "down" along the branch line to Newton Abbot, "up" the main line to Exeter St Davids, briefly "down" (in the opposite direction) out of the station throat, and then "up" as far as Exmouth junction before heading "down" the branch.

 

[Rescars]

Presumably some complicated up and down swapping goes on with a train travelling from Reading, through Guildford, reversing at Redhill and then going on down the "Old Road" towards Tonbridge.

 

[zwk500]

Presumably some complicated up and down swapping goes on with a train travelling from Reading, through Guildford, reversing at Redhill and then going on down the "Old Road" towards Tonbridge.

Not sure how complicated people feel it is, but Up from Reading, Briefly down at Guildford then back to the Up at Shalford Jn before the reversal at Redhill takes you (naturally) onto the Down Tonbridge.

 

[Irascible]

Do London-bound trains from Exeter St Davids leave by going up to Paddington, but down to Waterloo?

Only out of the platform, as was said, the junction is practically at the end of it. In older days you'd definitely have down Plymouth trains leaving in both up & down directions though ( likewise up Exeter at Plymouth doing the same ).

 

[LiftFan]

Some strange anomalies may occur at triangular junctions. Others may be able to suggest specific examples.

One close to me is Hawkeridge Junction just outside Westbury, where the Up becomes the Down and the Down becomes the up. This also means during diversions via Melksham the Down London trains travel on the Up again between Bradford Jcn and Hawkeridge Jcn.

 

[Taunton]

Historically it was always 'Up' towards the railway companies' head quarters.

It goes back further than railways for Up/Down to be towards or away from London. The novel "Tom Brown's Schooldays", written about 1820, has detailed accounts of travel by stagecoach, where reference is made to Up coaches, towards London.

On the ECML Down was always historically northwards, away from London, even beyond Berwick, on the North British heading to their HQ in Edinburgh.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Chester is another spot like Exeter with Up being to London via two routes: one to Euston via Crewe (LNWR) and the other (historically) to Paddington via Wrexham, Birmingham Snow Hill and Banbury (GWR).
But GWR trains leaving Chester initially travelled west to Saltney Jn on the Down (LNWR towards Holyhead) before turning south on to the GWR's Up line towards Paddington.